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Warren Webster 02H thermostatic radiator traps

WilliamGwiazdowski
WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78
in Strictly Steam

Decided to have a look at the cage units on my radiators. They are all Warren Webster 02H 1/2" with the exception of the attic radiator which is a Barnes & Jones 134 3/4" and for some reason the plant room/sun porch is a Hoffman 17C trap. The radiators all heat very well however the radiator that is in the upstairs guest bathroom gets way too hot it seems like testing with my IR temp gun there is no change in temperature across the trap. I'm suspecting that that cage unit has failed open. However all of the cage units have been in place for at least 29 years since Mom and Dad bought the place so I think I'm going to take and replace all of the Warren Webster 02H trap cage units with fresh Barnes and Jones units including the crossover traps in the basement. Does this sound like a prudent maintenance idea? Also took a picture of the cage unit off of the upstairs guest bathroom and does it look like it's failed open? All the other cage units look the same as well. They all came apart very easily with a little bit of leverage with an 18-in long pipe wrench which is all I have in my arsenal at the moment.

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Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,036

    have to heat it up and see if it expands to see if it is failed open.

  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    Thanks Matt I can do that. A pot of water on the stove I think should work just fine

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,036

    don't go too far, i'm not sure if they all will stop before they damage the bellows without being restrained by the housing

  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    Roger. I just need to see if I get any action out of them if I don't get any action out of any one of them I'll just probably procure replacements for every single one.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,036

    keep in mind the hot return could be coming from another radiator with a failed trap too. like i said in the other thread if the pressure is controlled and the vapor valves are still in place and adjusted correctly, it shouldn't need radiator traps

    it does need crossover traps or vents on the mains however

  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    Crossover traps on the mains are still in place. The upstairs guest bathroom radiator has a different valve than all of the other radiators as well.

    Crossover traps:

    KIMG8196.JPG KIMG8197.JPG

    Upstairs guest bathroom radiator valve

    KIMG8200.JPG

    East facing master bedroom radiator valve, all of the other radiators in the house have the same type of valve.

    KIMG8201.JPG
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,479

    29 years they should be changed

    Mad Dog_2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,036

    make sure the crossover traps are good. if those are failed open you will get steam in the returns. if they are failed closed the mains won't vent properly.

  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    So I think I will end up just replacing all of the cage units including the crossovers. I have scoured eBay and I've come across a total of five Barnes and Jones 1972 cage units which is what is specified for the Warren Webster 02H trap. I'll probably do the most important ones first which would be crossovers and bathroom radiator. And I'll just keep an eye over time for them.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,036

    you can buy new cages from barnes and jones or tunstall.

  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    Thanks !

  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    Looks like I might go the Tunstall route. The capsules are roughly $60 a piece from supplyhouse.com. and I need 12 to do all of the radiators that are in use plus the crossovers. The Barnes & Jones cage units are back ordered from supplyhouse.com and they are more expensive.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,036

    you should call or e-mail tunstall and make sure you have the right part and that you don't need to change the cover or something for it to fit.

  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    Absolutely. I'll do that when the time comes.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,677

    If boiling water is enough heat that they should expand, I'd build a test fixture (to limit the expansion) out of some aluminum angle stock and some long machine screws or all thread and test them. Holes would be drilled in the aluminum angle stock to keep the capsule captive and the long machine screws or all thread makes it adjustable for the expansion gap and for various size capsules.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    I was able to find the correct capsule right from Tunstalls website.

    Screenshot_20250912-101044.png
    Mad Dog_2
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,479

    Tunstall does this all day. They are located about a mile from where I live.

    mattmia2
  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    That's cool Ed ! They're not far from me either.

    Screenshot_20250912-120005.png
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 8,315

    Tunstall is a family-owned operation. Outstanding to deal with. Mad Dog

    Consulting by Mad Dog & Matt Jr.
  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    Maybe once I get all of the trap guts replaced I'll be able to turn down the pressuretrol to as low as it will go so then the burner will cycle on pressure not just thermostat and maybe save on fuel probably not much but if it makes a difference that would be awesome.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,677

    Why would you want it to cycle on pressure ? Cycling the boiler reduces the efficiency. If you want better comfort there are better ways than cycling on pressure, IMO.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    Thanks for the info. I'll probably just replace the trap guts and then leave everything else alone

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,677

    Once you get all the traps so they work properly I would add an appropriate sized low pressure gauge so you know what the normal working pressure is for your system.

    Cycling on pressure is usually a byproduct of an oversized boiler, where the boiler's Square Footage is excessive for the attached EDR (Equivalent Direct Radiation).

    If curious you may want to do an EDR survey and find out your particular situation is.

    Some systems were built as a vapor systems with special apparatus that need the pressure limited to work correctly. I don't think that is your case.

    If none of your traps are stuck shut and your EDR is well matched to your boiler your normal pressure should be very low.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,036

    Warren webster is a vapor system. if it still has the original radiator valves the traps are just added protection.

    it should work well on very low pressure without the traps.

  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78
    edited September 13

    It appears all the valves with the exception of the one in the upstairs guest bathroom are original. The only one that's different is that bathroom radiator. That radiator gets in my opinion way too hot and checking the return when the system is running the return is hot. I'll pull that cap off tomorrow when I get the appropriate size socket from work and test that particular cage unit. I tested the one that's in the dining room just in some boiling water and it appears to work. I'll bring that cap with me to work tomorrow so I can get the correct size and then I'll stop at hobo freight on my way home and just grab a cheapie impact socket. It appears to be a 1-1/4" hex. The biggest wrench I have in my shop is 1-1/8"

    Photo of upstairs guest bathroom radiator valve :

    KIMG8200.JPG

    The rest of the radiators have valves like this and looking in The Lost Art of Steam Heating Companion those are in fact Warren Webster valves.

    KIMG8201.JPG
  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1864651#Comment_1864651

    I think I've done an EDR calculation and the boiler is sized appropriately. Pressuretrol is set to cycle between 2 to 3 PSI. Cut in is set at 2 and I looked at the diff and it's set to 1. In a few weeks I'm actually doing some boiler maintenance so I may end up adding a low pressure gauge into the pigtail if that's an appropriate spot to do so

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,036

    you can close the valve on the radiator with the non-vapor valve most of the way to make it heat less. you can throttle radiators with the valve on 2 pipe steam.

    the differential between the supply and return should be under 8 oz/in^2 or so. the devices at the boiler may do that. the absolute pressure can be more than 8 oz but the differential should be low.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,036

    I don't know if i linked this before, but this is one of the warren webster catalogs

    https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/85.pdf
  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    I've never tried turning that valve I'll have to see if it turns. Upstairs guest bathroom needs to be really redone completely anyways so I don't need heat in it

  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1864663#Comment_1864663

    thanks Matt

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,677

    " In a few weeks I'm actually doing some boiler maintenance so I may end up adding a low pressure gauge into the pigtail if that's an appropriate spot to do so "

    Connecting it to the Pressuretrol side pigtail will work the water trap will help protect it. You may also want to add a shut off valve to the gauge only to protect it, only open the valve when you want to see a reading.

    I have a Dwyer Magnahelic Gage (like the one I posted in your other thread) connected to the top of my boiler through many feet of 3/16 silicone tubing as an air buffer against the steam. I wanted to see the actual boiler pressure, and at a different point of view. The weight of the water in the pigtail puts a very slight bias on the reading at the Pressuretrol, most folks with low pressure gauges may not care.

    With the Dwyer Magnahelic Gage they can tolerate up to 15 PSI so I did not bother with the extra valve.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,677

    " That radiator gets in my opinion way too hot and checking the return when the system is running the return is hot. I'll pull that cap off tomorrow when I get the appropriate size socket from work and test that particular cage unit. "

    This type of trap just prevents steam from getting into the return so air is not trapped where it should not be, it is not to control the amount of heat the radiator dissipates.

    With this valve, maybe the orifice is missing and all the other original valves have them.

    image.png image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    I'm gonna try shutting that valve off. I have that bathroom closed off now anyways as it needs to be basically blown up and redone in terms of painting some tile repair etc

  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78
    edited September 13

    Valve does turn, I just put a pair of locking pliers on the square end of the valve stem and shut it. From closed to open it is 1/2 turn. When we get into heating season I will see if the valve actually works.

    KIMG8217.JPG
  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    This afternoon I was putting up some new blinds in the garage and I found a radiator that used to be in the living room where the window seat is now and when I looked in the inlet spud I found what I believe is a restrictor orifice. Maybe somebody can confirm this?

    KIMG8228.JPG KIMG8230.JPG
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,036

    that is exactly what that is. the warren webster system looks like it used a complicated thimble piece but you can do the same thing with a flat plate that fits in the union for the valve with a hole drilled in it.

  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    So instead of replacing all of the cage units I think I'll just leave well enough alone. All of the radiators heat very well and I don't want to go opening up a can of worms that could get expensive!

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,677

    I guess there is multiple schools of thought here.

    You could clean, inspect (valve part) and test all the capsules. Opening them up in the non heating season gives you more time to deal with issues. Once opened up they may open up easier the next time, if needed.

    Opening them up may cause other issues that need repair.

    Do nothing and wait for problems that may never happen.

    Since you have this one opened up I would inspect the valve and clean out the debris.

    image.png

    Since you have the orifices the traps may only come into play with smaller radiators (if the orifice was not sized correctly, too large). Or very cold days (design day temperatures) when you need the whole radiator filled with steam to compensate for the heat loss of the structure.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • WilliamGwiazdowski
    WilliamGwiazdowski Member Posts: 78

    I think what I will do is open them all up clean everything and then next summer test everything and replace as needed. Taking them apart now cleaning and applying some anti-seize/dope to the cover threads will make it so that next summer everything will come apart for me hopefully without too much grief.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 14,036

    he traps would only come in to play if the pressure isn't well controlled on the boiler if the orifice plates are all in place. the boiler being the right size and having a vaporstat would keep the pressure under control. in theory you could undersize the boiler a little and not need the vaporstat.

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