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Unrecognized return vent

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Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,736

    just arrange them so any condensate flows back out the inlet.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,540

    If you get the system air tight you probably won't need a vacuum pump. Just a means to let the air out of the system and not back in.

    I was curious about the airflow through some of my one pipe vents so I built this interface. Sorry not Hoffmans but you get the idea.

    image.png image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • pacoit
    pacoit Member Posts: 94

    @Steamhead, @mattmia2 , Nice idea! However, my system doesn't have any steam traps to repurpose. Also, for the vacuum system, I envision a dry air-line return to a discharge pipe (with or without a pump); whatever I use as a valve to hold the vacuum, I don't expect it to see steam, or even more than warm air. So, I expect to use a check-valve or possibly a solenoid valve (depending on the ultimate design).

    @109A_5, Excellent! That's a good way for me to quickly setup a vacuum system for testing.

    By the way, I am in contact with @PMJ, who very kindly has offered to share his experiences.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,920

    @pacoit , they still make traps. For the long main you'd get a Barnes & Jones "Big Mouth".

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • pacoit
    pacoit Member Posts: 94
    edited August 10

    Thanks, @Steamhead .

    FYI, the threads on the "L" of the Breck are 1/8" NPT.

    EDIT: Also, it turns out the first Breck did not have a rusted out adjustment screw hole; it's just that the adjustment screw wasn't screwed in; once I obtained the key, I was able to screw it in without issue.—-Don't want people to think a Breck couldn't last 100+ years!

  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,468

    This thread is very interesting. Any steam heating system needs to expel air and return condensate to boiler. This system seemed to operate without radiator vents or steam traps which require maintenance.

  • pacoit
    pacoit Member Posts: 94

    @jumper, Actually, it had (has) a thermostatic vent at each radiator return.

    mattmia2
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,540

    @jumper Systems expel the air via the vent(s) (one pipe or two pipe), as you probably already know.

    The boiler heats the water, the water expands into steam the air gets pushed out. When the thermostat is satisfied and the steam collapses back to water and a vacuum is formed. The trick is having the system tight enough so the air can't get back into the system (once expelled), to maintain the vacuum from cycle to cycle.

    I believe if the system integrity is maintained the benefits are faster steam propagation (less air to push), less air (oxygen) minimizing corrosion and @PMJ's observation of more even, uniform heating.

    I also believe with the faster steam propagation you may save some fuel too, since little gains add up over time. You are not burning fuel to push air (as much air) out of the system.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,736

    The breck is a bimetal element air vent. See Dan's article that he linked.

  • pacoit
    pacoit Member Posts: 94

    Update: I put the Breck in 5% acetic acid (vinegar) for 3 days. It de-rusted very nicely. Lots of debris "boiled" out. I re-attempted heating it to see if it would close, but it did not. I also was unable do any further disassembly, nor see how it could be done. (I wonder if the insides were slipped in while the tube was still hot? Heat fit.)

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,736

    when iron rusts the scale is bigger than the original metal, even if you get rid of the rust it likely will be bigger than it started out. it also may have additional parts that screw in through the side ports, possibly with some sort of spanner that are holding the internal parts in. they may not have known enough about what would happen after a few years of use or they did know but didn't know how to fix it. This was one of the first steam air vents.

    If you ever want to part with one I bet the

    https://heatinghelp.com/news-and-media/dead-men-tales/the-general-society-of-mechanics-and-tradesmen/

    would accept a donation.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,920
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1862354#Comment_1862354

    @DanHolohan ?

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,647

    it would live forever there.

    Retired and loving it.
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,540
    edited 1:17AM

    When ever I completely remove rust there was less of the original metal left, since it went away with the rust.

    Was the screw removed (Red arrow) ? It would not surprise me if the screw pushed the "D" shaped inner assembly (Yellow arrow) against the other side of the housing.

    image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,736

    is there a patent number on it?

  • pacoit
    pacoit Member Posts: 94

    @109A_5, I removed the screw before de-rusting. I imagined, as you, that the screw held the guts in place. However, de-rusting hasn't loosened things up… yet. Haven't knocked it around much, yet. Also, should check it is fully de-rusted—-another vinegar bath.

    I have not found patent numbers or markings of any kind…. Maybe I need to get my eyes checked…

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,912

    Hi, Might be good to use some Kroil on it https://www.kroil.com/product/kroil-original-penetrant/ I've had it work on really stubborn stuff. 🤠

    Yours, Larry

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,540

    This book mentions the ''Automatic Air Vent" and a 1868 patent which I could not find. See pages 71, 111.

    http://waterworkshistory.us/DH/1960HBSmith.pdf

    image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System

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