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Help: drain leak in slab under a radiant concrete overlay!

b027
b027 Member Posts: 7

Hi everyone, I hope I can get some general advice to help us decide how best to approach a major drain line repair we're facing. Thank you in advance for taking time to read and if possible, offer feedback and/or suggestions!

Essentially: We discovered a leak in the drain leading from our kitchen sink. We don't yet know exactly where the leak is located. The sink is on an exterior wall at the back of the house. Our home is on a slab, and the leak appears to be below the concrete surface. We also have radiant system retrofitted over the entire first floor: a 2" layer of concrete with PEX tubing above a vapor barrier was installed about 15 years ago by previous homeowner. That system is currently off with no water circulating and we don't have any reason to think there is a problem with the PEX lines. We removed the cabinet floor above the drain and there's no visible moisture on the exposed concrete surface there (which is the top of the radiant heating layer, that was not covered with flooring near the drain entry point). However, if we continuously running water at the sink, within about 15 minutes later wetness becomes visible outside the house along the foundation, within 5-7 feet of where the sink is located. The origin of the wetness is beneath the siding just above the exposed foundation. Inside, throughout the kitchen, the radiant layer is covered by a wood floor. There's no sign of water affecting in the wood planks (e.g. cupping) near the the sink area, so it appears the leak and affected areas are all below the vapor barrier underneath the radiant layer, and within the base slab.

We had a plumber and remediation company look at the site (we already had them out for a hot water tank leak, on the same wall but about 25 feet away on the other side of the kitchen, that occurred just before this issue was observed!).

Their initial recommendation is to remove the cabinets to further inspect the interior wall for water damage and identify any needed remediation. All of that sounds fine.

The big problem is how to approach the drain leak given the presence of the radiant floor heating system. We don't yet know how far into the drain is where the leak originates, and we don't know what path the drain takes through the slab. I assume it connects somewhere to the laundry room on opposite side of the kitchen (where the water tank referenced above resides) before eventually exiting at the front of the house, which would require the drain to go underneath the the entire first floor, from back to front.

The plumber has generally indicated they can use some kind of tool (boroscope?) to try and find the origin of the leak and the direction of the pipe, but they did not sound confident, and our general impression was the only sure way to address the leak is to tear up the concrete, and follow the pipe until the leak is found, then make a repair and put everything back together.

While that makes sense, I'm very concerned about harm being done to the radiant system, since it resides in the same area where the concrete would be removed and I assume there's no way to avoid damage to it during the process!

For what it's worth, we're planning to be in the house at least 5-10 more years, possibly longer.

Questions — repair approaches: Given relative pros/cons, what would be the overall best approach given our situation:

1. Can the radiant system be sufficiently well protected (and or repaired afterwards) to guarantee reliability if we go through the concrete? How confident can we be in any repairs? We would eventually replace the wood floor in our home, but my fear is a slow leak from the radiant system that only manifests a long time after the drain repair is complete, and which causes much bigger problems inside the living area...

2. I don't know if the drain goes through, or under, the slab, but we live near (within 20 feet of) exposed bedrock so assume tunneling under the house may not be an option…?

3. the plumber suggested another possible option to avoid breaking the concrete is to run a new drain line that ties into the sewer elsewhere. I assume this would go underground along the outside of the foundation around the house to the sewer exit point in the front yard? To me this seems like it may be best (lowest risk) option, but could also be costly…? Fyi we're in northeastern U.S. with cold winters.

4. finally, I understand from researching online there is some possibility or re-sleeving the existing drain (depending on diameter and direction/turns) with a narrower pipe, or an epoxy-coated liner, but these seem to be not recommended due to long term reliability concerns…?

5. something else?

Questions — defining the problem:

6. How can we (plumber) best find the source of the leak? they mentioned some kind of tool (boroscope ?) but didn't seem confident about obtaining a result (possibly due to distance?).

7. How can we best determine the direction of the pipe within/under the slab? Could running (a lot) of hot water down the drain and using a thermal camera work?

Thanks for reading, and I would greatly appreciate any feedback or suggestions!

If we learn anything new in the meantime, I'll add in comments below.

B

Comments

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,911

    Hi, I would want to know where all drain lines run, so I'd know what my options about tying into them might be. Another possibility with a kitchen sink is to call it grey water and run it out to the yard. Then simply cap the existing drain. That possibility might vary with local codes. If one section of (probably iron or steel) drain is failing, others are likely close. Can a plan be made for re-routing the lines out from under the slab? 🤔

    Yours, Larry

    Intplm.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,231

    Oh brother. My first thought would be a borescope — a very long one. They are made, though you may have some difficulty in finding someone who has one and is willing to use it (a standard drain cleaning service will likely not be of any use at all). That would give you a chance to see what the pipe is made of and, if it is really possible to do it, see what else ties in and how far along. Some of the more sophisticated ones allow the head of the scope to be tracked, so you can see not only how far it goes, but a pretty good idea of where.

    Now. That's not going to fix the leak, and may or may not find it (my bet, incidentally, is that it will be right near the sink, where the drain goes from vertical to nearly horizontal, or else if the drain is over the foundation, where the slab joins the foundation).

    I don't think sleeving is an option.

    Now, second question: have you poked around outside to see it by any chance there is a cleanout, probably buried by now or hidden in the shrubbery, in that vicinity. There should be, if the original installation followed code. That can tell you a lot.

    And my last comment without actually being there is that if that pipe under the slab really is leaking, the odds of finding and repairing it without damaging the radiant tubing are slim to none. This is not a pipe holding water, so the least disruptive and quite possibly cheapest option is going to be to install a nice new drain around the outside…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,705

    option 3: run a new line along another route. What’s the frost line (depth) for your area.

    Mad Dog_2Intplm.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 25,432

    drains tend to only leak when they plug and build some pressure , how do you know it is a drain leak.

    Or perhaps the line has rotted away?

    It could be water jetted then a camera put down it to find the problem

    Most drain cleaning companies have jetters and cameras these days.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 25,432

    lots of options for relining 2” pipe also. Many You Tube videos show the methods

    IMG_0779.png
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • b027
    b027 Member Posts: 7

    Hi again and thank you Larry, Jamie, PC and Hot rod for the comments!

    The more I think about it, the more I think, Larry, Jamie and PC, you are right about a new external drain route being the best option to preserve the radiant system if we can. I'll be talking to our contractor more about this as well as the frost depth (appears to be 48" or more).

    Larry: I'll ask about the grey water option. Also, will ask about condition of our other pipes as it makes lot of sense they other parts could also be at same risk!

    Jamie: I'll talk with our contractors specifically about scoping the pipes. We're pretty sure the leak is within a few feet of the sink based on where the leaking water weeps out on the exterior wall, so you may be right about location and hopefully we have a decent chance of spotting the damage, as well as the condition of pipe father down. I'll ask about clean outs but there's not one I can see in the area and we've got full access to the exterior wall and have seen down a couple feet along the foundation two years ago when we laid an external PVC drain there for gutter rainwater.

    Hot rod: we believe it's a drain issue as the leak only occurs when the water is running into the sink. We can make it happen on demand by running the water for 15 min. I'll also look into a drain specializing company in our area for a second opinion and to better explore lining the pipes as an option.

    thanks again!

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,231

    On the new pipe around the outside of the house — keep in mind that a sewer line never flows full, and that — properly installed! — it will always drain. In most jurisdictions while it has to be buried adequately, it does not have to be below the frost line.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 8,286

    Bypass it and reroute. Let the old pipe in the slab "die on the vine." Mad Dog

    Intplm.PC7060
  • b027
    b027 Member Posts: 7

    that's good to know, thank you!

    The more I learn the more this makes sense. Thanks Mad Dog

    Hopefully we'll get more direct information this week and can assess if any other drain pipes might also be failing or about to fail.

  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,702

    @b027

    A lot of good choices are offered above. However, before you begin any repairs, I would exhaust all test options.

    One test that was not mentioned is a smoke test to find the leak. Non-toxic smoke can be a reliable tool and can give a close location to the leak.

    A [ good ] camera sent down the drain can, at times, show the location of a leak, too.

    Lining a smaller diameter pipe to seal off a leak is an option as well, but it should be discussed with the company doing the lining.

    Hope this helps.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,808
    1. go buy lots of couplings
    2. dig the hole
    3. repair the drain
    4. fill the hole
    5. replace all the cut radiant floor lines
    6. pressure test the radiant floor
    7. operate the radiant floor
    8. pour concrete over the repairs

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    PC7060
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 25,432

    Id wonder what type of piping you have and the cause of the leak?

    An older home may have cast iron or galvanized piping in the ground, 2” or possibly 1-1/2

    If there is other metal piping under the slab, it might be wise to have it all inspected.

    If the pipe rotted away from the outside, that could indicate moisture or wet soil.

    Find a company that specializes in drain inspection. This may involve cleaning all the drains first to get a good look at the condition

    Repairing a failed connection is one thing, an entire rotted section is a different challenge

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream