New refrigerants Epa 608
What is the deal with the new refrigerants and the EPA 608?
Is our old card still good? Do we have to retest? I have been searching an cant find any conclusive answers. Some supply houses are going to do testing. Maybe I will just drive over and ask
Comments
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Still good.
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Your certification covers it but I would take a class on the 2 R2L refrigerants and the equipment.
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That would be nice although I can hardly read mine been lugging it around since 92. Came from some college in Minnisota or Wisconsin that was doing the testing. Ferris State University. The say they would never expire
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and except for a supply house or employer who has asked for it?
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you don't need the A2L certification if you have the EPA608 type 2, but if you haven't attended any classes discussing the new refrigerant I would take the test. it's open book and pretty cheap online. Either that or ask your equipment supplier if you can attend a local class, I know there have been a bunch of them. These typically don't earn you an official A2L certification but it's worth learning the few new bits of info in my opinion so you don't wind up scratching your head on the jobsite. There are going to be a couple of very minor differences that are relevant to installers from each manufacturer, nothing major but its nice to know before you are on the jobsite
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fsu is in michigan.
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I have an epa 609 certification, suggestion on who will sell a 30# tank of r134a online? Some supply houses will sell to me, others will not.
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On line its readily available!
This whole Certification thing has become a farce!
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the guys and I did a 4 hour class with FW Webb a couple weeks ago.
The better news is- I have 4 jugs of R454B!
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I ran into a former co-worker the other day. He told me that the R454-B is in short supply and pricy…..very pricy.
In fact he said some people have installed R-454-B units and then find out they can't find refrigerant.
he said some have resorted to putting R-410A in. I guess most MFgs are using R-454B but some others (like Goodman) are going R-32
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was it ever enforced in the us other than for the most egregious industrial violations?
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Supply houses felt pretty strong armed into not being able to sell tanks of refrigerant to anyone without the license, then all of a sudden its OK to sell the stuff to anyone online, then it's fine to sell the AC equipment to anyone, but EPA rules say you can't actually install the stuff or open the tank without the license… nobody ever does that right? . Supply houses remain strong armed into protecting their licensed customer base by not selling those items to the public while the big box stores sell to anyone. Sometimes I feel like I should put on my clown makeup as I'm telling some poor homeowner I can't sell them the jug of refrigerant because they don't have the proper license as if I am the EPA's strongest soldier lol
Easiest solution if you are having trouble though, is to get the license. It really isn't that hard and even if you just learn 1 thing you still learned something
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In reality all I have to tell the supply house is "I have certified techs on staff" and there allowed to purchase refrigerant.
Rules / Laws without enforcement are worthless!
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"Rules / Laws without enforcement are worthless!"
Easy now!! whoooaaaa!!
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Couple of place I worked would make a list of the techs and there #s and send it in to the supply houses.
I guess the supply houses "sort of" knew who had one but supply house staff and techs change constantly and I think I was probably asked maybe twice if I had the EPA card at a supply house. never had to show it though.
One place I worked we were hounded to weigh our tanks (new and recovered) to keep track of the refrigerant but that never lasted long.
Its kind of like "maybe big brother is watching, maybe not"
I know of one big union contractor in the area where his techs are licensed but he operates for years with no Refrigeration Contractors license.
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What's the point?
When you've got equipment being engineered / manufactured poorly that dumps how many thousands of pounds? of refrigerant into the atmosphere per year, why does it matter? I've got a feeling it's thousands of pounds per month……….but I really don't know.
Now, some will argue the equipment leaks because it's made so thin to meet efficiency requirements. If that's the case, then those requirements are wrong and need to change.
/Rant.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Our educational partner, SkillCat, has EPA 608 Certification available on their mobile app. (The only app that has EPA 608 training AND the official EPA Exam.)
And if you download the app using this link, it helps support the Heating Help community.
Forum Moderator
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I really doubt that tubing thickness has much effect on efficiency if any. The copper or aluminum tube is a better conductor than everything around it, the liquid refrigerant, the air, the cross section of aluminum fin attached to it. pretty sure it is all about the cost of the metal and shipping weight if it even is actually thinner. I assume it is either not drawn properly or has excessive impurities in it.
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thickness is an R Value. The thicker the copper the higher the insulation value.
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Yes, but it is very small. If you triple it, it is still very small.
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It's thinner for sure. Look at residential HW baseboard. It doesn't even come close to "M" tubing. Its paper thin. Coils in an AC are just about the same.
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when the gouberment wants savings you do what you have to do!
.1, .2 is a huge #.
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I'm still not buying it without seeing the math for the heat transfer. The thickness of the fin should have far more of an effect than the thickness of the tubing if the thermal conductivity of the metal is a significant factor.
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simple math
1/4”
1/2”
3/4”
1”
Insulation
sameThing!
Even ICE slows the transfer of heat!0 -
That doesn't show how it figures in to the transfer of heat from the air to the fin to the tube to the refrigerant.
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Transfer of heat!
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Heat pipes work better at transferring heat than solid copper or aluminum bars.
Just something to think about Matt
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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a heat pipe moves heat by boiling and condensing a refrigerant. it is the latent heat of vaporization that moves the heat. that also doesn't tell you if the resistance of the transfer of heat through the tube is significant compared to the resistance of the transfer of heat from the air to the tube or from the tube to the refrigerant.
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Thinner=more efficient—-yes
We have a 10 to 1 leak rate on indoor wall units, the "high efficiency" wall units are 10x more likely to leak.
That's just mt data. I've been logging this into a speadsheet for 10plus years
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try the new R290 & R-600 systems. We’re seeing 30% failures in 2-3 years. Some very upset customers!
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And yet those are running similar pressures to R22 systems that used to last 30+ years.
I've heard people blame the high pressure of 410A, obviously that's not the case on an R290 system.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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I have seen some information that new installs with R454B are loosing compressors. R-32 seems to be ok (except for my own failed through the wall unit which was R-32). Still looking into it.
I am sure (as usual) the MFGs have gone to market without adequate testing just as they always do. I suppose they will complain that the government pushed them into it but they have know this was coming for a while.
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Which R290 systems have you been installing? I thought the capacity required was still too much for US regulations in residential? I know Viessmann has used R290 in Germany for well over a decade, but those are all air-to-water monobloc units so the refrigerant is all contained outside, less flammability concern
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These are commercial refrigeration systems. Limited to less then 6 oz.
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Oh,
The small commercial systems have finally caught up to the dehumidifier crowd? Leaking all over the place?
My dad just bought a R32 dehumidifier to replace one he had that's 2 years old and leaking, and it's icing up out of the box. Apparently they start leaking just sitting on the shelf.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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Bring a refrigerant detector and stick it in the plastic bag it is wrapped in before you buy it.
but i assume it is all refrigeration equipment, i think people have been having that problem with most refrigerators for about the past 20 years.
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Anything mid 1930s to mid 1940s is probably an excellent choice if you just want it to make your food cold and never stop working.
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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there all 290 or 600 today
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