Trane Air Handler Fan Constantly Running
I have an old Trane air handler ('92) whose blower immediately and constantly turns on as soon as power is turned on to the air handler. The fan will run despite turning off the thermostat or unplugging G from the board.
I think it is the relay that is faulty and the NO connections remain stuck close, causing the fan to constantly run.
I found a similar looking DPDT switch on Amazon, but it doesn't seem to include any time delay features and not sure if it would be compatible.
I tried finding a replacement online however it seems that the relay is discontinued. There are some posts online that state an appropriate replacement would be the RLY02807 time delay relay, however I'm not entirely sure. Here is its installation manual.
Honeywell ST82U 1004
R8222U 1071
21C144385P01
12AFL 72ALR 120 VAC
6AFL 36ALR 277 VAC
3AFL 18ALR 480 VAC
15AMP RES 277 VAC
10AMP RES 480 VAC
Comments
-
-
-
2
-
Yeah I don’t see anything on this relay that suggests its time delay, but I found it interesting that the only posts I could find on it online - both mentioned replacing it with a new time delay relay.
The one you linked at supply house only has 2 terminals for the coil, however this relay has 4 terminals - similar to the time delay one where it uses the A, B, and T terminals.
0 -
Also not sure if it’s coincidence or not, but #1 terminal appears much darker than the rest, almost as if it was burning hotter.
0 -
-
-
In the photograph of the Relay in the AHU there is no time delay shown. if it had the time delay you are mentioning there would be an additional printed circuit boars attached to the coil terminal with the double grey (or light purple) wire connected to it. See the Illustration below
In the illustration on the right, the green PCB is not included in the photo on the left, therefore you have no time delay on that relay. You should be able to just swap out the defective relay for a working relay. If you get the same result, then the relay is not the problem. What will you check next?
Do you have the wiring diagram for that AHU?
Can you test the suspected defective relay?
How does that suspected defective relay respond to applying power to the relay coil?
How do the suspect welded contacts respond to an ohms or continuity test?
If the relay tests good and the motor continues to operate, then there is a misplaces wire somewhere. That is why you need the wiring diagram.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
1 -
-
Yeah I agree that it should just be a DPDT switch then, no time delay.
Unfortunately this AHU's wiring diagram is worn out, not sure how much I can get out of it. I have similar Trane AHU in other zones, however they have slightly different wiring diagrams and model numbers.
I disconnected the relay from the AHU and tested for continuity with a meter. I only have continuity between the coil's terminals. Both 1 + 3 and 4 + 6 are open. So it doesn't seem that the switches are stuck close without energizing the coil and likely the relay is fine after all.
I can plug the coil terminals back in later tonight and check for continuity on both switches and see what happens too.
0 -
Is the black stuff on that terminal sooty, does it rub off on your finger? silver plated terminals can tarnish and look like that, but that looks burned rather than tarnished. If it is burned, it is because the contact is failing and has high resistance and is heating the terminal. A bad termination to the wire could do it too, but you can see in the picture of it connected that the wire isn't burned on that terminal.
1 -
@loamyroots11, that diagram is shot but there will be one in the manual. If you don't have the manual, then look online for the manual based on the model number of the AHU. This reminds me of a Carrier/Bryant/Payne product, so those manuals are easily found on line. If it is an American Standard/Trane product, I may have access to those manuals too.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
0 -
No it's not sooty, the black doesn't rub or scratch off. The terminal looks completely burned, but yes I agree the wire that was terminating on that terminal doesn't seem burned.
0 -
It's a Trane AHU from 1992, model # TWH048B140A1.
I tried looking online previously, but didn't have much luck. However, this time I came across a link to the Trane Supply catalog and I think I found it!
0 -
Based on the wiring diagram above, it seems that the fan motor receives power from the 1+3 contacts on the relay.
So would it be correct to deduce that the fan motor is constantly running either:
- The relay is bad and the 1+3 contacts are stuck closed despite energizing the coil
- Something is constantly energizing the relay's coil causing the 1+3 contacts to close. Not sure if this is right, since the coil seems to be supplied by 24V off the secondary transformer (R, B, common)?
0 -
unplug one of the coil wires and see if it stops. if the armature was stuck because the contacts are worn and getting hot and melted the plastic, you may have dislodged it when you unplugged and removed it.
0 -
Ok I'll give that a try and report back, thanks!
0 -
Ok so disconnecting either the white or red wires from the coil causes the fan to shut off. The fan continues to blow when the green coil wire is disconnected.
0 -
-
Yeah was starting to get that feeling too, especially after performing continuity checks on the switches.
The Red wire (from A on the coil) goes to R on the LVTB and goes to the 3A fuse and 24V transformer. Is it possible that the fuse is bad and would cause the relay to constantly energize?
The white wires (from B on the coil - the diagram calls them blue wires) goes to 4 on the switch as well as B on the LVTB, so that doesn't seem to be the culprit either.
0 -
-
oh, "lvtb" is just the terminal strip that connects to the thermostat.
remove red and tape it up and see if it works properly. looks like it is to supply constant power to a time delay board that was removed.
0 -
@loamyroots11 said: "Ok so disconnecting either the white or red wires from the coil causes the fan to shut off. The fan continues to blow when the green coil wire is disconnected."
Then @mattmia2 said:
And I disagree. By removing the red or white wire you are breaking the 220 VAC to the motor, same as the relay contacts between post 1 and 3 would break the 220 VAC to the motor. So that means the there is continuity between the 1 and 3 NO contacts on the relay. If the relay coil is not powered, then there should be no continuity between 1 and 3 on the relay NO contacts.
On the chance that there is 24 Volts powering the relay coil, removing the green wire or the double gray wire from the coil spade connector should cause the relay contacts to change position from closed to open. Since removing the green wire did not change anything then that is pretty conclusive that the relay is defective.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
1 -
-
@mattmia2,
You can't go by that wiring diagram. ThePCB time delayon the R8222 relay is missing. There is a green wire that comes from the thermostat LVTB connection connected to the Coil on the R8222. I don't see the red wire from the diagram in the actual picture. That R8222 relay has continuity from 1 to 3 the NO contact terminals when the relay coil is not powered. I could be wrong, but that is what I am seeing. What I am seeing is not original wiring from 20 years ago.OOOPs. I was looking as the other air handler too long. The red and the green and the double common are all low voltage. That relay is probably working fine as you said Matt
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
1 -
The Quick fix is to remove the Red wire from the Coil on the relay. just cap that off.
If the PCB time delay was in place, then that would use the 24 VAC Red wire for constant power for the PCB. Without the PCB in place there is nothing to interrupt the common side for the relay coil from completing the circuit. Since that PCB part of the R8222 relay is no longer available, someone just removed it to get the system operating temporarily. Probably 10 years ago temporarily This system without the 24 VAC red wire to the R8222 relay ust means there is no time delay on start or on finish for the fan to use all the energy stored in the refrigerant coil when the thermostat is satisfied. Probably time to look at new equipment a piece at a time over the next few years.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
1 -
Yeah sorry I used the diagram's abbreviation of low voltage terminal board. Ok I’ll unplug red, make sure it’s taped off well, and test it out.
0 -
you can get time delay modules you can wire in if you need it. Not sure what it was doing, probably holding the fan on for a minute or 2 after a heat call to remove the residual heat from the hydroair coil. Some thermostats can do that too. Holding the fan after a cooling call only works well in very dry climates otherwise it reevaporates too much condensate.
1 -
On that air handler, that PCB was used to delay the fan on for about 30 to 60 seconds so the refrig coil was cold before blowing air thru the ductwork. then it kept the fan on for about 60 to 90 seconds after the call for cooling was satisfied in order to maximize that cooling energy left in the coil. This was the Deluxe or Premium coil back in the day. The PCB has nothing to do with the heating coil. Hydronic heating coils were not a consideration for air handler manufacturers back then. only electric heating coils were considered and those sequencer and timers were part of the heat kit based on the kW rating of that particular heat kit.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
2 -
-
Ok so after doing some research, it seems like the RLY02087 relay is the replacement for the original PCB which is discontinued. Based on the installation manual, it seems to keep the fan on for about 80 seconds +/16 afterwards.
Would it be worth it to install this timed relay - the idea being that it would provide any additional efficiency in heating?
Or since hydronic heating wasn't a consideration for this air handler, the fan delay is not necessary and won't provide any additional efficiency in the winter, plus it might even be worse to have the fan delayed during cooling (in a humid climate)?
0 -
With an Air handler stopping and starting the cooling and the fan at the same time isn't a big deal. Usually on cooling you start the indoor blower and condenser at the same time. You can continue running the fan TD off but won't gain much if any efficiency.
On heating you usually delay the fan on start up so the occupants don't have cold air blowing on them it gives the coil time to warm up.
TD off on heating…same as cooling won't gain much efficiency.
TD off is more important with a gas or oil fired furnace. You should never shut the fan off with a ripping hot heat exchanger
1 -
I'd just add a time delay off module to the heat relay (or use the RIB with time delay). The aquastat does the on delay by not turning the blower on until the coil is hot. You only need off delay if you want it.
0 -
The PCB time delay is for cooling only. The relay that has the PCB is the fan relay and has nothing to do with heating. the fan relay is activated by the thermostat when there is a call for cooling and when the thermostat fan switch is changed from Fan Auto the Fan On. That relay does nothing for heating fan operation.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
0 -
This Hydronic coil air handler may be a different zone, but the concept is still the same. Operate the AC with the controls system that waere installed by the manufacturer to use as an air conditioner. The existing original relay is for Fan on and for Fan auto operation for cooling. the G terminal on the thermostat takes care of that function.
to make the fan operate for heating, someone added an aquastat and a heat relay to that air handler. Just like zone 6 in your other post, the heat relay is there to
- Turn on the fan to blow heated air from the hydronic coil to the rooms
- Turn on the circulator pump and boiler to send heat to the hydronic coil
- Then the aquastat is there to keep the fan from blowing unheated air in the winter until the hot water coil gets hot water in it. then the aquastat will allow the fan to operate.
Every air handler will have a similar design. There may be different ways to wire the system but the principle will be the same.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
1 -
Understood, I think I'm starting to grasp the overall design and sequence of operations now.
By just unplugging that red wire (A on the PCB time delay) from the relay, the fan is no longer running continuously. We should definitely see an improvement in our humidity levels compared to last summer when we first moved in as the fan was constantly running.
Thank you again for all your help!!!
0
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.9K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.2K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 57 Biomass
- 425 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 110 Chimneys & Flues
- 2.1K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.7K Gas Heating
- 105 Geothermal
- 160 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.6K Oil Heating
- 70 Pipe Deterioration
- 983 Plumbing
- 6.3K Radiant Heating
- 387 Solar
- 15.4K Strictly Steam
- 3.4K Thermostats and Controls
- 54 Water Quality
- 44 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 18 Recall Announcements