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R454B leak detection and mitigation devise

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EBEBRATT-Ed
EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,209
edited May 31 in THE MAIN WALL

Unreal. Anything to add more cost.

On a furnace with Ac this thing will shut down the AC & gas heat and run the blower to dump the leaking R454B into the house to mitigate the R454B flammability.

Glad I am retired

I guess Carrier and Bryant are doing this don't know about others. "AC SERVICE TECH" has a u tube video on this.

Miata

Comments

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,436
    edited May 31

    so basically the sensor my 2001 325i has on the core support to decide if it should recirculate or use outside air.

    The tech that installed my furnace 25 years ago said more or less the same thing about the txv(after he plugged it up with a slug of oil from opening the service valves too fast). Takes a while for people to learn new things especially when 3/4 of the communications from manufacturers is 1/4 true marketing instead of solid technical information. go to any manufacturer of anything's web site. try to find their product on it.

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,280

    personally all these safety’s are lawyers getting involved.

    SuperTech
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,209

    From what I have read the R454B is pretty tough to make it burn. It does have some flammability but it doesn't seem that bad

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,280

    it burns if there’s a flame present but once that flame goes out it goes out. It’s not self supporting!

  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 672

    I honestly don't see what the problem with that is. It is pretty close to how fuel burners deal with a failed ignition event.

    My only beef would be is yet another sensor that can potentially fail.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,209

    @Kaos

    More service calls, another probably expensive module and sensor to fail, more cost to the customer upfront.

    And another control to be jumped out when the customer has no heat at midnight Christmas Eve when it is 0 out.

    They are wired to shut down the heat and the AC

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,838

    It seems like a lot of things keep improving and hit a point where they're essentially perfect. A good blend of affordable, long lasting and reasonably efficient.

    Then for some reason they keep trying to improve it and it just keeps going down hill. It seems like 1990s was that point for air conditioning.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,209

    The refrigerant recovery thing started in about 92' IIRC.

    That's 33 years. How long will it take these people to find the "perfect refrigerant?

    Or are they changing every few years just to have us dance in circles? Feels like a puppet on a string to me.

    It was great in the old days 12, 22, 502 and some Carrier units were 500 (Carrine) covered most of it except centrifugals.

    Then they started with all the new stuff. This one is a blend you have to liquid charge, you can't use this one with that oil, its not compatible with the gaskets yada yada..

    Now everything is a flammability issue.

  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 4,061

    Nobody thinks any more. The logic behind so much of what's going on right now is just "oh noes that's BAD!!!1!", and if you try to point out any deficiencies you're a hater or a denier or a Republican.

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,280

    Every time the patents run out its time to get a new one

    GGross
  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 672

    This is the result of the highly litigious society. A good comparison is try and imagine that a circular saw was invented today, you would never be able to get it on the market. In the saner parts of the world, R32 units have a minimum indoor space volume which provides enough air to dilute it.

    You can get smaller equipment and higher temperature out of R32, definitely a good change from R410.

    R290 is even better but will only fly with outdoor monoblock units.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,209

    I think True uses R-290 in the food service industries.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,436

    is that device so that the relay for the blower can light it off.

    (without turning political, it usually starts out as a reasonable rule, then the industry that needs regulation gets to lobbying and removes the part that needed to be regulated and the part that wasn't really the problem gets left in the rule.)

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 18,209

    @mattmia2 all I know is the one I saw on U tube they had the sensor in the evap section because coils tend to leak. If it senses a leak the control shuts of the condenser and the heat and turns on the indoor blower to dissipate the refrigerant.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,838

    Wouldn't it be better to just make it so coils don't tend to leak anymore?

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    mattmia2SuperTechpecmsg
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,436

    but that would require you regulate presumably the actual biggest source of emissions in consumer refrigeration products, poor quality leading to the refrigerant escaping while in service.

  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,611

    I wonder why the other parts of the world where A2L refrigerants have been in use for years do not require any sort of leak detection and mitigation devices?

  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,555

    It's part legal requirements and part manufacturers trying their hardest to not end up on the news or in a courtroom. As far as I can tell all manufacturers are handling the detection and mitigation similarly with slight differences in sensor location and what concentration they mitigate at. You see the sensors in the coil because in a normal upflow installation the refrigerant (if leaking) will fall down to the burner, the manufacturer takes care of this part because they are required to do so (there's a fire in there after all). The equipment manufacturers are not supplying any sensors or mitigation for your connections outside the mechanical room because it is not their job to do so, and quite frankly local codes haven't all decided what will or will not be required of you for leak detection outside the cabinet From what I can tell all the boards, whether built in or separate (they will likely all be built in within the next year ) can take an extra sensor as there will be situations with 2 furnaces in one room where codes or manufacturers requirements will require a second sensor on the outside of the furnace cabinet to prevent one refrigerant line from leaking and ending up in the other furnaces cabinet. Allied Air brands and I think Lennox as well have sleeves for where the lineset connection is made at the coil so if your field connection leaks it gets picked up by the sensor, should make finding a leak just a bit easier

    Honestly from an equipment perspective this is such a minor change, and one that should detect a leak before there is a real problem which may be beneficial to an installer. The parts I am worried about are the local code requirements for refrigerant piping, they aren't even finalized here and the guys are installing the stuff.

    @SuperTech much of europe requires the sensors since about 2020. One of the sensor manufacturers was key to getting the regulations passed (go figure) I imagine much of Europe doesn't have typical gas fired furnaces so the overall possibility of a leak actually igniting goes down tremendously when you have an air-to-water heat pump, or a wall mounted mini split.

    KaosSuperTech
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,436

    I wonder what the listing requires of the relays on the controls, if they have to be explosionproof? I suspect that most of the ones that are mostly sealed to allow washing of the boards during manufacture are inherently unlikely to propagate an explosion outside the case of the relay.