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House heats up but thermostat is turned off AND thermostat's battery is dead

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Comments

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,410

    If all wires are disconnected from the two T - T terminals, when the system is powered up if the relay still activates the L8124C is defective, that was mentioned before.

    Are you sure this black wire is not pushing on the armature of the relay (the black plastic part) ??? It is way too close for my comfort.

    image.png

    If it helps you any the relay's coil is visible from the side.

    image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,410

    " Yet the circulators are running to heat the house with TT open "

    How many circulator(s) are there ???

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,410

    Left - Relay de-energized, contacts open.

    Right - Relay energized contacts closed. Pressure from an ill placed wire could push the armature (the black plastic part) and erroneously close a contact.

    image.png
    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    HVACNUTEdTheHeaterMan
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 26,010

    First, get rid of ChatGPT. It hallucinates. So do some of us, but at least we know when we're doing it.

    Then start by looking at @EdTheHeaterMan 's comments. He really does know what he is doing.

    Also, the circulator CANNOT run unless it is getting 120 VAC power from somewhere. If it keeps running when T-T is open and either the relay in the box is stuck closed — it happens — or there is another 120 volt feed to the circulator which, if I'm reading your comments correctly, seems to be what is happening (circulator running with T-T open and presumably your test showed the relay really is open — although that is not clear.

    Now I have to admit that I'm a little concerned, as it almost seems that you are poking about at energized wiring without really knowing what's happening. The problem with that is that connecting yourself to an energized wire can ruin your whole day. You were fortunate with your "insulated" needle nose pliers — that's a 24 VAC circuit and you got away with it.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,410

    " Last fall the boiler system was in perfect working order, never a drip, no corrosion. Now there's a puddle on the floor in front of the boiler. How am I going to fix this? Is it fixable? "

    DIY or Plumber. Replace what is leaking, may need the tankless coil assembly. Seems like a lot of rust and corrosion for only a few months of leaking.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,772

    Is the relay pulled in while the circulator is running without call for heat? Like @109A_5 showed, you can manually press the clapper to see if the contacts disengage. Or you can pull slightly on the clapper to engage the contacts. This thread should be dead by now.

  • WilliamJ
    WilliamJ Member Posts: 27
    edited May 5

    @HVACNUT I will test the thermostat wires with my multimeter. I have no reason to believe they are energized, see pic. https://photos.app.goo.gl/rDvFuvSbQ1SK8nhG6 How do I use a multimeter to test for a short in the t-stat wires? Answer: search youtube.

    @109A_5 previously I only disconnected one of the two T-T wires as I understood that was sufficient to open the circuit for testing. This time I'll disconnect both T-T wires.

    Anyway. I'm going back to the house today. I will check the relay to see if it's stuck. I still have the old aquastat. I could reinstall it, now that it's dried out.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,491
    edited May 5

    That CK61 is an older version of the one I showed in the diagram above This is the manual for the Field CK-61. The wiring is similar

    I have updated the wiring diagram for you to print and place with the heating equipment for future reference. 

    Screenshot 2025-05-04 at 9.35.44 AM.jpeg.jpg

    @109A_5 has a very good illustration of the 1K2 contact inside the L8124C 1K relay I referenced above.

    Untitled Image

    If that contact is welded together or there is a wire pushing on that armature, then the contacts will always make the circulator operate whenever power is applied to the L1 contact on the L8124C control. That contact in that photo must be open to stop the circulator from operating. If you find that the contact is being manually closed by an obstruction, then removing that obstruction will solve your problem. If the contact is welded together, then you need to replace the control. 

    Screenshot 2025-05-05 at 11.33.59 AM.png

    Also @HVACNUT indicates that you can manually move (with your finger) the weight on that armature to open or close that 1K relay to see if the contacts are opening and closing. This will power the C1 terminal and disconnect power to the C1 terminal on the L8124C as you change the position of the armature manually. Once you actually move that part with your finger and see that the C1 terminal stays powered (Defective) or opens and closes (Operating properly) you can determine if you need to replace that control, or not. 

    Pushing the weight should stop the circulator and the burner, pulling should start the circulator and the burner.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • WilliamJ
    WilliamJ Member Posts: 27

    @EdTheHeaterMan Thanks Ed. And everyone.

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,491

    After looking closely at this statement

    Later I did some testing with ChatGPTs directions. For one of the tests I connected C1 and I disconnected one of the TT wires then jumped T T with an insulated needle nose pliers. The relay engaged immediately. I also did a couple of other tests. One for Voltage at B1and B2 both when TT is open and again for when it is closed (jumped); I got 120V when TT was jumped. Same results at C1 and C2. Those results were normal, if I'm following correctly. Yet the circulators are running to heat the house with TT open (one wire disconnected) which is not normal and not even explicable.

    I can see that your test may tell me that the L8124C may be operating properly.

    When you say you "Jumped T T with an insulated needle nose pliers" and you saw the relay engage and when you removed the jumper the relay disengaged. This is what is supposed to happen.

    You further stated that B1 to B2 was powered when the T T was jumped and that B1 to  B2 had no power when not jumped.  This is also proper operation.  

    You further stated that the same happened with C1 and C2.  This is also the correct operation of the control.   

    I do not understand how the circulator is operating when there is no power to C1 if the only wires from the circulator are connected to C1 and C2.   There must be another wire connected to the circulator for it to get power when there is no power from C1. That other wire will provide power to the circulator and provide power to C1 at the same time. In other words, the power is not coming from the C1 on the L8124C.  The power is coming from somewhere else and powering the circulator that also happens to be connected to C1

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,491

    Here is a wiring diagram with the photo of the control. I have labeled the components from the diagram on the photo in order to better understand the way that control works. I saw that you may have a question about what is the 1K relay in an earlier message. This can be confusing to many. It took me years to figure out how the diagrams work.

    Screenshot 2025-05-05 at 5.04.42 PM.png

    Bottom line is we need to determine why the circulator is operating when it is not supposed to. With a little more info We can do that for you. I sent a Private Message (PM) with more info.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,491

    After a closer look at your post I am wondering if there is more to look at here. This is what I'm talking about:

    "Yet the circulators are running to heat the house with TT open (one wire disconnected) which is not normal and not even explicable."

    Is "circulators" a typo, or do you have more than one circulator? If you have more than one circulator, then how many thermostats do you have. There are several ways to connect a circulator based on using multiple thermostats. That multiple thermostat thing can be part of your problem and may have nothing to do with the L8124C control.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 2,410
    edited May 6

    " previously I only disconnected one of the two T-T wires as I understood that was sufficient to open the circuit for testing. "

    Yes normally disconnecting only one wire is enough to disable a simple circuit. However since you don't seem to be able to identify, isolate, understand, troubleshoot the circuit to the needed level to understand what is causing the problem (and the whole AI thing seems at best confusing the issue), then when I see wiring like this (see picture and comments below), I have know idea what is going on. So then when you seem to be doing random, non logical things, I would try to get to a known useful state, which in part is to disconnect everything from the two T - T terminals and move that wire that is way too close to the relay's armature away from it.

    image.png

    White wire only at one end.

    Green wire not a consistent color.

    A Green thermostat wire Grounded ???

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,491
    edited May 7

    So we did some "real time" testing over the phone and have determined that the thermostat is defective. The thermostat wire with the thermostat off the wall, does not complete the circuit from T to T on the L8124C1003. The C1 is not powered when the thermostat wire is connected to the L8124C and the thermostat is off the wall.

    When you connect the red and green wire at the room thermostat location the, 1K relay pulls in and the C1 terminal gets power. This is the way it is supposed to operate. The thermostat wire and the L8124C are doing the job as designed.  The thermostat must be defective since the only time the system overheats with the thermostat turned off, and when the thermostat is connected on the wall. Remove the thermostat and everything is operating properly.  

    Here is the wiring diagram for your system with the Boiler, Burner with Electronic primary control, L8124C Aquastat, the Field Controls SWG with the CK-61 control kit and a simple T87K thermostat.

    Screenshot 2025-05-04 at 9.35.44 AM.jpg

    You should print this diagram and have it close to the heating system for future reference.

    This is some thermostats you may want to use for the replacement Honeywell CT87K or the Honeywell CT31A do not require battery replacement.

    You can also purchase other thermostats with more features but the tenant will most likely not benefit from them.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?