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300 cfm per ton?

ChrisJ
ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,714

I'm looking at the possibility of adding a switch to the air handler in our shop so I can control the blower speed. Right now, I'm at something like 380 cfm per ton but on cool damp days I'd really like more latent power.

It's just a typical 3 speed PSC motor, and I'm thinking a SPDT toggle to switch between 2 of the speeds.

Will I have any issues with running a typical residential split system with TXV at only 300 cfm?

Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

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Comments

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,078

    Can the system handle the low load without freezing up?

    There are speed drives available.

  • MattinIndy
    MattinIndy Member Posts: 18

    How cool of a day are we talking about?? I'd recommend cycling the condenser fan to help keep your pressure up. Also, if you make this modification, I'd definitely be sure you are not feeding liquid refrigerant back to your compressor, as replacing a compressor is pretty expensive.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,714

    I don't know, I suppose there's a way to find out.

    Can you give an example of a speed drive for a PSC blower?

    Not terribly cool, 65-70F.

    Are there any hot gas reheat options for residential equipment?

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,078

    google

    Evaporator fan motor speed drives

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,078

    wanna cut the airflow back 25, 30%? That’s a big drop

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,714

    Yeah, it is.

    Originally I had it set on high speed which was something like, 430 cfm per ton, I finally decided to drop it to the middle speed which is roughly 380 per ton. I'm sure the middle speed will work good for us 90% of the time, but days like today it would be nice to have to ringing the air out better.

    Maybe I need to look into reheat options instead. Humidity is a big concern for us.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,123

    Check out the Daikin Quaternity, they have two coils and can heat and cool simultaneously to maximize dehumidification. Although for some reason they are not very popular, I've never encountered anyone who had one installed. They also may have limited availability, I don't think they've come out with a new model to comply with the new refrigerant requirements.

    That said, when last I looked the Quaternity I came to the conclusion that you're better off from an energy use perspective running a two-stage dehumidifier like the Quest MCORR. Product page is:

    https://www.questclimate.com/m-corr-technology/

    There's a discussion here: https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/question/quest-m-corr-dehumidifier-technology

  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,988

    If you really want to dehum with the AC unit, add a heat strip. Size it carefully & you might be able to get away with control by a simple thermostat with dehum contacts (TH8321 comes to mind), but with SCR control you will have a lot more flexibility.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,794

    I was told you can go down to 250/ton from the usual 400-450. But the temp your maintaining the space at has a lot to do with that. Get too low and get freeze ups

    This is frequently done in lab spaces or in some process enviroments.

    Your going to lower the evap temp by moving less air. If you have high humidity that is a load increase so it may not affect things much.

    Normal evap temp is about 40 so only go as low as you can to keep it above freezing. When the suction pressure converted to temp gets to 32 your done although they say with the air moving it won't start to frost until about 25. depends on the moisture content.

    Some units (I think Trane) have a discharge gas coil for reheat.

    @ChrisJ Have a great book on humidity control Chris if you wan't it PM your address. i don't need it anymore.

    ChrisJ
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,751

    Maybe put the vfd on the compressor to drop the system capacity down to something closer to the heat load of the structure and drop the blower speed way down so it runs long cycles to dehumidify better.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,751
    edited May 6

    or put an ecm motor on the blower that you can fiddle with to your heart's content.

  • MattinIndy
    MattinIndy Member Posts: 18

    One other idea that might be easier than hot gas bypass would be to install a Rawal Valve on the AC unit. Some people also refer to them as APR valves. We have had success with them helping to control humidity in low load situations.

    ChrisJHVACNUTmattmia2
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,988

    A Rawal valve is basically hot gas bypass in a kit. It would let you turn the air down nearly as much as you want and still keep the suction pressure up. I've installed them in splits before, I wouldn't put all the service valves in again, there's just not enough room. Maybe one in the hot gas line so you can turn it off. Bring all your takeoffs off the top of the pipes so the oil stays where it should.

    mattmia2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,751
    edited May 6

    Not to mention that many refrigerant grade valves cost almost as much as a modulating condenser.

    doing a little googling, the rawal device looks pretty pricey too.

    I think you could replace the compressor with a 2 stage for a lot less and I know you know how.

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,078

    the Rawal device is for limiting capacity. Is it proper in this situation?

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,714

    Probably not

    I need to muscle just not for sensible cooling.

    But I did enjoy reading about the Rawal valve. I've never heard of it before.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,751

    If it were matched to the load you would be running long cycles and getting good dehumidification so you do want to reduce capacity. A standalone or duct connected dehumidifier might do it too.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,794

    A Rawal valve is a hot gas bypass to the compressor. A hot gas bypass to the evaporator inlet is better than a Rawal but with a split you have to run a hot gas line to the evap.

    Hot gas bypass (to the evap or a Rawal) will keep the evap above freezing if set up right but comes with a cost you running the compressor full boat and not getting anything except more power being used. Hot gas is usually used on chillers where freeze up is a major issue.

    Most package units come out of the factory built for and 75-80/25-20 sensible to latent split. With a split system you can do better because you can vary the fan speed.

    Really instead of working backwards you should calculate the total load and the sensible/latent split and then see if the unit will do the job with the condenser and evap coil you have. JMHO

    ChrisJ
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,794

    Don't know what temp and humidity you want to maintain but we designed some with 70 sensible and 50%RH which is a dew point of about 50 deg if I remember right.

    I remember a chilled water job we did with a new Carrier Chiller at Eveready Battery. We had the CW temp at 44 supply and 54 return typical chiller temps and we couldn't get the RH down. I installed it but didn't design it.

    My boss had all these people running around who were "real engineers" wondering why it wouldn't work. They proposed plastic coated ceiling tiles and epoxy on the floor to combat humidity infiltration. I sat on the floor looking at my psych chart and checking the coil outlet temps. I realized the the whole coil had to be below 50 degrees and it wasn't with a 54 water return.

    I went upstairs to the chiller and set the supply to 38 (the lowest temp Carrier would approve without glycol) By the time I got back to the space the humidity was gone. Humidity moves very fast.

    ChrisJ
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,751

    I don't think he needs a super low rh, i think he's keeping the rh near 100% because the system is oversized. i need to think about it a little more but it has short run times that pull the sensible temp down fast. you want a warmer evaporator that condenses the moisture out but doesn't cool the air much more than is needed to condense out the moisture.

    EBEBRATT-Ed
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,714

    Hi Matt,

    The system isn't oversized as far as doing a manual J etc is concerned, if anything it's undersized.

    RH tends to run in the mid to high 50's when it's mild out and raining, but it also depends on what our machines are doing. If we're running them hard they tend to start steaming off water/coolant so it makes it more humid in the shop.

    I'd like low to mid 40's for RH.

    I feel a warmer evaporator is the opposite of what I want and reheat is probably the best bet.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    EBEBRATT-Ed
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,988

    Definitely you want the coil as cold as you can get it without freezing anywhere to wring the most water out. A dehum unit or a standalone dehumidifier is the actual solution, plus appropriate vapor barrier construction. I guess we're not going to get that.

    I did process environment for an additive mfgr'ing plant. We ended up with reheat in the duct to give the unit some heat to work with, and that was with a York (uhg!) dehum unit. Consistently ran around ±35%RH, but with vapor barriers mostly-correctly installed. IIRC 30kW of SCR controlled heat strips, controlled with a T775 for neutral air. (I since found the MBus io12 & wrote a clever [IMNSHO] program for ∆T control.)

    I think reheat will be the cheapest dehum to get installed, but a ducted or standalone dehumidifier will probably give you the best humidity control.

    ChrisJ
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,078

    is this a commercial building? If it is the is the wrong program. The fact you have equipment generating steam is also an issue.

    mattmia2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,714

    What do you mean by wrong program?

    What's the correct program?

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,794

    Need a load calculation to see if the equipment can do the job before anything is done

    HVACNUT
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,714

    The equipment is what it is, I can safely say that's not changing.

    We've had this for four years and it's far better than without. I'm just trying to squeeze what extra I can. Hot gas reheat is possible but there's no way I can replace everything. That's just not in the cards.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 6,078
    edited May 7

    you need more equipment with reheat capability, the better control humidity.
    You could try one or two whole house dehumidifiers.

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,123

    In just about all situations a colder coil means more dehumidification. That stops being true when the coil gets above the dew point of the air, and there is a practical limit that if the coil is below freezing it will ice up and block the flow of air and everything shuts down.

    Coil temperature is determined by the ratio of air flow to refrigerant, the less air the colder the coil. While you can easily control the flow of air, you have to realize that the compressor control logic is going to modulate the flow of coolant as well. Depending on the system there might be a TXV, modulation of the compressor or a temperature sensor on the coil.

    Note that when performance is measured for SEER ratings only sensible cooling is required. So manufacturers are incentivized to keep their coil temperature up and minimize dehumidification if they want a high SEER rating. Sometimes they compensate by having a "dry" mode that maximized dehumidification.

    A separate issue is run time. All other things being equal, a longer run time will lead to more dehumidification. Dehumidification happens when dew forms on the coil and drips off into the drain pan. It takes a few minutes at the start of the cycle for enough dew to form to start dripping. At the end of the cycle, any dew that is still on the coil and hasn't dripped off yet will just evaporate, so the moisture is returned to the air. If the cycle is so short that no condensate is removed, no dehumidification happens. Generally short-cycling is an indication of oversized equipment.

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 1,123

    A stand-alone dehumidifier is a very efficient space heater. The latent heat of all of the water it removes is added to the environment, along with the heat of the electricity consumed. They typically have a COP of 4 or more. If you need to be heating the air to get enough dehumidification, the way to do it is with a dehumidifier.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,751

    If it is a txv system, won't the txv keep the coil form freezing if you slow the airflow down? I suppose the first thing to do is to measure the evaporator temp. It is oversized on everything but nearly the hottest day…

    Maybe exhaust fans at the equipment to take the humidity and heat outside instead of trying to condense it out of the air?

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,714
    edited May 7

    No

    The txv controls superheat, it doesn't care what the actual temperature is.

    I could add a freezestat to the suction line I suppose. That turns off the outdoor unit if it gets too cold.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,794

    Exhaust fans will not help. You exhaust air and more air infiltrates in putting more load on the system.

    ChrisJ
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,751

    not if the infiltrating air has less moisture than the process.

  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 628

    Sample of 1, had similar issue at a towhose I lived at many moons ago. Installed a fan speed controller on the blower fan and turned it down till the supply air got to around 40F. Fixed the humidity issue. You do have to keep an eye on it to make sure the coil is not icing up.

    I was troubleshooting equipment earlier this week with condensation issue. Outdoor temp was 68F and dewpoint was 65F. If you are in a place like that, adjusting the AC won't help, you'll need a dehumidifier.

    Resistance re-heat is very expensive to run, last rest.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,751

    how does the txv set superheat instead of temp? i'm just trying to understand how it works. The sensing bulb has some sort of refrigerant in which has some P T curve. Is the diaphragm that the sensing bulb is connected to open to the evaporator on the other side so it is metering based on the refrigerant's curve, the suction temp, and the evaporator pressure?

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,714

    Most of them measure both temperature and the pressure leaving the evaporator. It uses both the temperature and pressure to control the flow, therefore actual superheat controls it, not just temperature. It doesn't care if it's 40F or 0F, as long as it has whatever superheat it's supposed to have, it's happy.

    Thermostatic_valve_in_system.svg.png

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,794

    @mattmia2

    TXVs do not control temperature they only control superheat, that's all they know. Certain factors like an undercharge or overcharge will affect their capacity they work best with a reasonable stable pressure drop across them. The position of the bulb and location are important. best on a horizontal line and nor where oil can trap in the line.

    It senses suction temp and evap pressure and will try and maintain a constant superheat.

    See page 7-1 in the attached Copeland book

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,751

    isn't this basically what i said
    "The needle is controlled by a diaphragm subject to three forces. The evaporator pressure is exerted beneath the diaphragm tending to close the valve. The force of a superheat spring is also exerted beneath the diaphragm in the closing direction. Opposing these two forces is the pressure exerted by the charge in the thermal bulb, which is attached to the suction line at the outlet of the evaporator. "

    The one @ChrisJ posted is externally equalized, i think most used for small dx systems are internally equalized.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,714

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.