RESIDENTIAL PLUMBING WATER ROUTING METHODS OF THE DEAD MEN

ww · April 25

There are two ways the water in a 100 year old plus house is routed from the hot water source from the boiler as well as the cold water from the valve from the street.

In order to feed the kitchen which is on the other side of the house widthwise pipes go across to the piping feeding the first floor sink.
Presently in order to feed the upstairs bathroom two pipes go from hot and cold water outputs length wise of house to the upstairs via the wall on same side as boiler to under the floor boards to the bathroom sink,tub fixture and toilet and want to change this to number 4 below.
The pipe at the wall going upstairs had a leak and I made a temporary repair.
I would like to put piping on the same side as the kitchen going upstairs and tie that in to feed the upstairs using a hot water heater located in the basement.
I would like to route the piping upstairs and find between the walls at the floor joists upstairs there is cement on top blocking the space in between the walls on either side of the bathroom and the adjacent room.
I've thought of various ways to do this and would like to know what would be the best way to do this project and the best way to route the piping upstairs rather than say what I have thought of. Why would old time plumbers route the pipes using this method?
The location is in NYC and I plan to use mostly copper pipe and fittings and some threaded pipe fittings and pipe as well. No shark fittings, plastic pipe,etc. My question involves the routing of the piping mostly.

Larry Weingarten · April 25

Hi, I'd like to see a sketch, just for clarity, but the rules to follow now are different. Straight and square isn't needed with flexible piping. You want to do what you can to have the least amount of water in the line between heater and fixture. Shorter runs and smaller diameter are your goals. Based on supply pressure, figure out what the smallest size pipe is that will work.

I recently plumbed a house in 1/4" tubing, but had 60 psi to start and no runs over 25 feet. Also 1.5 gpm was the highest flow. An engineer wrote that it met code. … I'd probably start by measuring flow rates at the fixtures.

Yours, Larry

Jamie Hall · April 25

I confess to being a bit confused as to what you want to do — a sketch would be helpful… but a couple of comments anyway.

First, do I take it from one of your comments that you want to put a water heater upstairs? Is there one there now? Why would you want one upstairs, rather than where it is now — I presume in the basement?

Second, why would you want to reroute the plumbing to the upstairs bath area? I can well understand wanting to replace leaking pipes, but it will likely be a good deal easier to replace them in the same routing as at present — you may even, with some ingenuity, be able to do so without opening any walls or floors or ceilings, or with only minimal openings.

Could you clarify, please?

Having said that, I wouldn't care to speculate on why a plumber a century ago did what he did. Sometimes it can be a bit mystifying… but particularly if he was putting plumbing into an existing structure, it may have been much the sim[lest way of doing it.

Another comment which is relevant is that in rerouting pipes under the floor and above the celing as it seems that you are proposing you wiould have to take up the floor or the ceiling and may have to drill through joinst, none of which is either easy or cheap and may not even be practical or safe, depending on what you find when you start demolition. As I noted above, replacing pipe on the same routing does not involve that possibility.

And yet another — a water heater upstairs will either require running a gas line up there or a new electrical service —- and that may not be quite so simple, either.

ww · April 25

I re edited to clarify confusing issues.

ww · April 25

putting the water heater in basement below the bathroom with 2 pipes connected to bathroom appliances is the simplest way to route the water. don't want a water heater upstairs.

ethicalpaul · April 25

The old timers didn't have pex. I was able to pull pex lines into my 2nd floor bathroom from the basement using a very small chase that had been used by the original copper pipes. The copper pipe installers had the benefit of installing them before the plaster walls went up.

mattmia2 · April 25

what sort of construction is the building? is it wood frame? is it brick? is it some other sort of masonry? is it structural concrete?

ww · April 25

wood frame..i figure that cement might be structolite from plastering the walls which was used as a basecoat.

mattmia2 · April 25

if the bathroom is tile, the tile is probably set in a mortar bed.

hot water wasn't very common until about the 30's and not universal until about after wwii so it is likely a patchwork of several retrofit and renovation jobs.

Jamie Hall · April 25

If it were mine to play with, I'd keep the pipe routing as is, and replace the pipe — which may be galvanized — with PEX. Doing it in copper would be sort of nice, but is the hardest and most disruptive way to do it that you could find.

PEZ in that situation is simple and quite reliable. I think it even meets NYC code… The trick is to extract the old pipe and run the new lines in the same place. That is actually easier than it sounds — as @ethicalpaul said, you pull the new lines through where the old ones were. The trick to it is that you pull out the old lines in sections and while you are pulling them you attach a snake to the other end. As you pull the old ones out, the snake is pulled through exactly the same route. Then you use the snake to pull the new line in…

Mad Dog_2 · April 25

In general, the most direct route possible is ideal. Yes, a good sketch would help us alot. Mad Dog

Mad Dog_2 · April 25

As of this moment, as far as I know, PEX is STILL not permitted in the 5 Boros of NYC on domestic water, period. It is allowed for heating only. Mad Dog

Jamie Hall · April 25

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1853546#Comment_1853546

aargh

ww · April 25

I know you can't use that here and wouldn't if I could…the old brass pipe under the floor couldn't be pulled through since it can't bend and isn't plastic. I just asked about if anyone ever ran into that cement top between floors and elaborated on the situation. Thanks for the input.

I should have just done the thread saying I want to run a copper pipe from the basement floor to the second floor. Would you go between the two walls of adjacent rooms or place pipes on outer walls?

mattmia2 · April 25

inner walls. unless you rip the wall open and insulate it such that the pipes are inside the insulation, the pipes freezing is a likely outcome if they are in outer walls.

If the ceiling is wet plaster over metal lath, the back of the base coat will look like rough concrete. Frequently the materials used in wet plaster had asbestos mixed in them, especially if they were factory pre-mixed products.

delcrossv · April 25

In that case, copper is your best option. You may be able to feed 1/2 soft tubing using fairly small holes in the walls if you don't have a straight shot down a wet wall to the basement.

If you're trying to preserve the tile, you're stuck working from the other side of the wall as plaster is easier to patch than wet laid tiles.

I imagine soft K or L is code for potable in NYC ?

Mad Dog_2 · April 25

You'd be surprised how unnoticeable & low profile some tightly spaced, insulated water lines tucked in a corner or along the Baseboard moldings will be.

Have a really good Carpenter cover them with ornamental moldings. Mad Dog

Jamie Hall · April 25

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1853570#Comment_1853570

Which is exactly how plumbing was installed in really old houses… one didn't even try to run it in the walls, as the nature of the construction was such that it was really really hard to do!

And yes, run it in or against inside walls if at all possible.

Mad Dog_2 · April 26

The Plumbing in the very old stone houses in Ireland, for instance, everything was run exposed. Mad Dog

EBEBRATT-Ed · April 26

I can't picture what your doing but don't run it in an outside wall. The cement may be fire stopping or plaster that was pushed through the lath and fell to the botton of the joist bay. Ask me how I know. I got an auger bit stuck in the plaster at the bottom of the joist bay and fought that for 1/2 an hour trying to get the bit out with plaster raining down on me on a 90 degree day. Then when I got the bit out the Romex was hung up on the plaster. After a few more holes and the house looking like Swiss Cheese I gave up and took another route.

Short and direct is better if Pex is a no -no you could use soft copper.

@Mad Dog_2 That"s because in Ireland they don't use much water, our forefathers relied on beer.😂

Mad Dog_2 · April 26

And The Poteen!! Mad Dog

ww · April 26

thanks for the input…when i say outer walls i must have said it wrong…not the outer walls close to the outer walls of house..i meant either placing the pipe on a wall so it is visible…or between the two walls. i wouldn't put a pipe close to an outside wall since it might freeze..sorry for the confusion.

RESIDENTIAL PLUMBING WATER ROUTING METHODS OF THE DEAD MEN

Comments

Categories