Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

When did pressure relief valves become standard?

ChrisJ
ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,577

I've tried to find this, but haven't had any luck.

When did pressure relief valves become standard equipment on home heating boilers? Specifically steam?

Also curious when LWCO's became standard, I'd guess sometime in the 1940s?

Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

«1

Comments

  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,588

    From what I had read years ago, they began use in the early nineteen hundreds after many boiler explosions. Steam ships and railroad engines were some of the first warning signs when explosions had occurred on those boilers. The use started there, and was adapted on home steam boilers sometime around that time.

  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,588

    LWCO? I would agree that they started around WWII. If memory serves, they were not shown as a requirement in some code books decades later. Maybe as recently as the nineteen eighties. They were only required when radiation was below the boiler. (Not sure of what the code says now.)

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,692

    That's for hot-water boilers. Steam boilers have required LWCOs for decades, almost as long as they've been made. ISTR they came out not long after oil burners for home use became available.

    I think I've only seen two coal-converted steam boilers that didn't have LWCOs. One had dry-fired and cracked; I put a #67 on the other.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Intplm.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,521

    I lived on the first floor of a 2 family when I came home from Korea in 1970. Both apartments had Delco D4 steam boilers in the basement and neither had a LWCO, in 1978 the boiler for the 2nd floor apartment dry fired and cracked. i was home that Saturday and smelled something hot in yje back hall so I went down the basement to investigate. I could see the side of the boiler had a red spot so I cut power to it and told the landlord he had a problem on his hands. A new Burbham v74 was installed and I'm sure that did not last nearly as long as the old Delco.

    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,936

    James Watts…first relief valve I believe. Mad Dog

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,577

    I think this is incorrect, but regardless it doesn't say when they became standard equipment in home heating systems. Maybe they have always been, I have no idea.

    I'm still confused as to why hot water boilers didn't need LWCOs. That still seems strange. They're just as "low water intolerant" as steamers, no?

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    Mad Dog_2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,279

    Steam boilers naturally lose some amount of water and will heat possibly even after the water level is dangerously low. Steam boilers generally aren't controlled on temp so there would be nothing to stop the burner as it keeps getting hotter.

    Hot water boilers don't lose water unless there is a leak and will usually stop heating because they are air bound long before they dry fire although it certainly is still possible in a few ways. Usually the aquastat will cut the burner long before they dry fire as well. I think most dry fires of hot water boilers are burner controls that get stuck on, either gas valves getting stuck open or relays on oil burners welding shut.

    bburd
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,279

    As far as pressure relief valves, they weren't needed on hot water systems until they went to closed compression tanks from open attic tanks.

    Intplm.ChrisJ
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,936

    Ok..wrong saints name... Joseph Watts 1874 in Massachusetts..mad Dog

    ChrisJIntplm.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,577
    edited April 2


    Denis Papin
    Denis Papin is credited by many sources as the originator of the first pressure relief valve (circa 1679) to prevent overpressure of his steam powered “digester”. His pressure relief design consisted of a weight suspended on a lever arm.

    @DanHolohan did an article on him.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    Intplm.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,469

    That can't be right, @ChrisJ ! That dude isn't even American!

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    delcrossvPC7060EdTheHeaterMan
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,515

    I don't know when safety or relief valves became a requirement but it was probably after boilers started exploding.

    I would assume LWCO were required around 1920 which is when oil burners generally became commercially successful. LWCOs not needed with coal there was nothing to shut off.

    I have seen a few old robot steam boiler running in the early 70s when I started with no low water cutoffs on them.

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,684

    What year did Hartford Insurance debut their little piping contraption? The LWCO must've been after that, right? Not sure about the relief valve, but I'm glad someone thought of it. I've seen video of a Fulton 100 psi boiler go off like a rocket.

    Intplm.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,279

    The hartford loop works with hand fired coal. A lwco not so much. Probably was some early version somewhere that closed the dampers to slow the fire.

    I doubt they were super concerned about safety with the early oil burners considering the early gas burners just had a min flame size that was unlikely to go out and nothing like a pilot safety. I wonder when the stack relay made its debut.

    Oh, and they used CO instead of methane and it didn't have an odorant.

  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,936

    I've got a great idea....Do a scholarly paper on it...after your other basement "experiments" are published in ASHRAE & ASME journals as the new industry standards. Mad Dog

  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,936

    Cool Jamie..When Noel lived on the Island & worked in tech support at Slant Fin, we got to spend a good deal of time together. Mechanical genius and brilliant guy. Mad Dog

    mattmia2
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,732
    edited April 2

    Something wrong with being American?

    There was a time, not too long ago when codes and even common sense were considered suggestions rather than law. What you chose to put in your own boiler room was between you and maybe your insurer. I've seen plenty of 1930 and 1940 installations with no more than a check valve in their returns. Some had just a solder plug to douse the fire if pressure or temperature went amiss…

    Mad Dog_2
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,936

    Yes..very snide remark..what exactly are you implying? Mad Dog

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,469

    I’m just saying we all know that non-American fittings, fixtures, materials, tools, and inventions are junk, as I’ve seen written here innumerable times, so I’m a little shocked and disturbed that such an important invention came from “over there”

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Mad Dog_2EdTheHeaterMan
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,279

    i mean the steam engine came from europe and that is as close as i'm going to get to a number of rules.

    but i think it was sarcastic recognizing that most early industrial revolution technology came from europe, mostly england

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,732
    edited April 3

    Don't know why you'd say that. Some of the inspectors don't allow Chinese fittings,and my insurer woun't allow us to use Chinese tools, unless they're listed, but other countries manufacture many good products and appliances. America's stuff is pretty good too, if you can afford it. There's a market for cheap junk among amateurs, but most of them don't put high value on their time or pay workmens' comp.

    Mad Dog_2
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,469

    you don’t know why I would say it? Because I have been reading it here for years. It may take me some time to see the light but eventually it happens.

    There are 74 discussions in this forum with the term “Chinese junk” alone, (now 75).

    Surely you must remember some of them.

    Anyway I thought you guys would be happy to hear that I’m on board with what you’ve been saying all these years. You’re kind of hard to please!

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Mad Dog_2Intplm.EdTheHeaterMan
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,631
    edited April 3
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,577

    Have home heating boilers essentially always had pressure relief valves? My friends Red Flash #1 certainly had one and it looked original.

    I think I'm confusing things, maybe due to when the T&P came out for domestic water heaters.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,732

    Chris, I've checked out some of my old catalogs and see them on boilers going back to the late 1890s at least. I think it would be nuts not to have a pressure safety valve.

    Now low water cutoffs are another story. I've seen many steam systems from the 1930s and some from the 1940s that had no low water cutoffs. Hot water systems still don't have them around these parts unless the installer cares.

    Mad Dog_2ChrisJEBEBRATT-Ed
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,279

    Although it is sort of hard to tell through the asbestos, there have been some converted boilers posted here that looked like they didn't have a relief valve. Some of them were likely hot water boilers that had open expansion tanks.

    ChrisJ
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,515

    I started in 73'. I saw a couple of really old steam jobs with no LWCO. Very rare and I was shocked to see it.

    One old lady in her 80s with a snowman boiler with no lwco. I suggested we install one and she said "why, I have been in this house 60 years with the same boiler I check the water every day in the winter"

    How do you answer that? And all the hw boilers that never had one

    ChrisJethicalpaulMad Dog_2
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,577

    Thank you Ed.

    I agree with you. Similar, but not directly related I installed multiple pressure reliefs on our compressed air system after the compressor's pressure switch stuck on once. I didn't want everything to be depending on one relief valve working.

    Not boiler related but, what about my previous comment with domestic water heaters.

    T&P aside, was there a time where many of these were being installed without any pressure relief?

    They only started putting them right into the tank somewhat recently I think 70s? 80s? What about before that change, did most if not all get a relief of some sort, or were many just left off? The tank that was in our house when I was a kid had an adjustable relief installed in a tee, and that was from the 70s I think, but I have no idea if that was typical.

    Is this @Larry Weingarten territory now?

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,279

    The original water heater n my parents' house from 1957 had a relief valve installed in a tee in to the tank. I have seen a few posts of monel and copper water heaters from around 1950 that were still in service that did not have one.

    ChrisJLong Beach Ed
  • HeatingHelp.com
    HeatingHelp.com Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 137

    There's a lot of sarcasm in this discussion. Please be respectful and follow site rules. We're all here to learn from one another, not to tear each other down. Thank you.

    Forum Moderator

    ChrisJSTEAM DOCTOR
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,577

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,788

    Hi, About domestic water heaters, I believe it was around 1960 that it became code in the US to install T&Ps on tanks. Watts filmed "Explosion Danger Lurks" in 1942 to try and convince code people to require relief valves. It's an interesting film 🤠

    Yours, Larry

    ChrisJMad Dog_2
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,279

    When was republic around? The one in my parents' house I assumed was original from 1957 since it was all plumbed in steel and was there when they bought the house in 1973. It was a republic. It got replaced in about 1987 but wasn't leaking.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,577

    The one in our house was a tan colored sheet metal housing with dark brown top, bottom etc.

    That sounds like 1970s to me? I'll have to ask my dad if he remembers if that had a port, or why it had the adjustable relief in the tee.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,577

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    mattmia2Intplm.
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,788

    Hi, Ruud made the autohot. It was the first automatic tank heater I know of. It had a light brown top and tan sides. Mine had a copper tank and was made around 1925. I did find this: https://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Fowler-Water-Heater-Age-Manuals.php about Republic. All of my water heater files now live at the General Society… and they like it there! 😽

    Yours, Larry

    mattmia2ChrisJIntplm.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,577

    The house was built in 58, so I'm sure it was at least that new.

    To me, from memory it looked 1970s… but I don't actually know. Yet.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,376
    edited April 3

    I recall seeing that film at a trade show in the early 80's. They also had another showing 80-100 gallon tank explosion in a school house. There was a T+P installed, but the temp sensor was cut off so the valve would fit into a 90 ell.

    In the 80's and maybe early 90's I would get water heaters WO T&P's. That was the industry standard. You had to buy one as an extra cost. Eventually every WH came with a valve installed.

    I recall seeing electric WH's with pressure relief only. I think they relied upon the upper T-stat with the ECO as the temp safety. Saved what? maybe 2 bucks with the pressure valve only.

    Then at the trade show after the films a company rep said that he was asked that "do we still have to install these T&Ps anymore as there haven't been any explosions from WHs for the last few years" Duh??

    Larry WeingartenChrisJ
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,936

    Better yet, and maybe a better indicator as every American household had one, was when were stove top pressure cookers mass produced? Mad Dog