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Replacing an old/inefficient oil burner with...an oil burner (?) Or...?

thesandsoftime
thesandsoftime Member Posts: 4

Hi, All,

I know you answer this same question many different ways over and over again and I get that every professional has their own likes/loves-and-hates for models, but — BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCES (and what you have in your own home; what you'd recommend for your own parents):

If you were in your "forever home" but 70 years old (wife about the same age) and had to replace a 60% efficiency oil burner with either an Energy Kinetics System 2000 Frontier furnace, OR a Peerless WBV OR go a whole different route and switch to propane, installing a Bosch Greenpoint in the basement, digging and burying a 500 gallon propane tank outside in our yard, with all of those costs….WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND?

I'm wary of all the "system will pay for itself in x years" thinking; we'll be lucky to be here another 15-18 years. I don't want to go into the $ numbers of what they are wanting for install, unit/labor, etc, just want to know your gut recommendations first.

Thank you for your time/wisdom, in advance.

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,832

    Well… there isn't enough information there to really allow me to say. Based on the possibility of selecting the Bosch Greenstar series boilers, though, I'm going to guess that this is a hot water heating system, not steam.

    And I will make a further assumption: that for some reason you MUST replace the old boiler. It's cracked, or has some other fatal defect.

    Based on that, I would agree with @Ironman .

    However

    What's the matter with the old boiler? What's the age, make, and model? Has it been serviced recently? If so, what were the combustion results from the service and adjustments?

    You quote a 60% efficiency. Bluntly, unless it is really old — like an old Snowman refitted with an old oil burner conversion from coal — it should be doing a good deal better than that.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Grallert
  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 2,169

    why replace the existing system? I think any replacement is a questionable use of money unless it’s a must.

    LRCCBJ
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,335

    Gut feeling: based on your two choices, the Peerless. But I agree with @Ironman about the Buderus over the Peerless. I am looking at the age of the occupants of the home and regardless of the cost to operate the Peerless has all the regular parts that every oil burner repair man can easily make work.

    Assumptions:

    1. You need to replace it for a legitimate reason. (not just to get a new more efficient system.)
    2. You want the system to last at least 20 years (you can expect 30+ years)
    3. You need something that is easy to maintain
    4. The age of the occupants precludes DIY service
    5. The price of the system and/or the oil is not an issue

    In other circumstances, I would go with System 2000. The lower cost of operation will outshine any cast iron boiler with standard oil burner controls Also I like the Buderus Oil Fired boilers better than the Peerless 

    As far as a GreenStar, I like them also, however there are parts and systems on the boiler that require special knowledge, parts and training to get the maintenance and some repairs completed properly.  The life expectancy may be less than 20 years putting the possibility of a replacement being needed during the time frame of your occupancy.   And at a time when you are much older and less able to deal with that situation. 

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    delcrossvbburd
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,225
    edited March 8

    I'm just a homeowner/mechanical engineer, not a heating pro. So this is just my personal tradeoff.

    If I was 50 years old and planning to stay in that house "forever," I would install a System 2000.

    If I was 70 years old, I would install the Buderus and then take a trip to the Caribbean with my wife. 😀

    thesandsoftimeEdTheHeaterManPC7060
  • thesandsoftime
    thesandsoftime Member Posts: 4

    Let me throw a monkey wrench into all these wonderful points-of-view: someone just recommended a Navien high-efficiency compact boiler with a 95% efficiency rating (propane connection). Opinions about that company seem to be all over the place. Thank you, jesmed1 for the endorsement of a Caribbean trip.

  • thesandsoftime
    thesandsoftime Member Posts: 4

    As for why the replacement now? It is running, it has been maintained thoroughly and….we spent well over $5,000 in oil over this relatively-mild winter. It is a 1986 Crown Bon-Air, attached to a Bradford-White water heater (2022 installation).

  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 2,169

    are you sure this winter was mild? In much of the US, it was much colder than average. How many gallons have you used the past few years?

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,483

    Changing to an EK or a condensing boiler are probably the only two options that will save you any measurable amount of fuel.

    You have a 1986 boiler. Efficiency of a new CI boiler is probably about the same as what you have if you existing boiler is properly maintained.

    I vote for a Peerless. Any competent technician can maintain and fix the boiler and parts are readily available. Finding someone competent is an issue.

    Finding someone who can service an EK or a mod con is more difficult and mod con parts are expensive and sometimes had to get or non existent after 10-15 years.

    You do NOT want a Navien.

    Its kind of like do you want the extra expense of buying a BMW or Mercedes that may save some fuel or buy a Chevy or a Ford?

    They both drive the same road.

    What's wrong with your old boiler?

    Does it leak? Or is the age bothering you and you want to replace it do to age alone?

    delcrossv
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,225
    edited March 8

    Also, where do you live, and how many sq ft is your house?

    For comparison, I maintain our 4-unit condo building in the Boston area, 4800 sq ft total, built circa 1930. And we burn about 1200 gallons per year, which this season is costing us about $4200 at $3.50/gal average.

    We have a separate water heater, while your hot water comes from oil, so for an apples-to-apples comparison, I'll add $800 to our oil cost, if we were making hot water from oil.

    So for an apples-to-apples comparison, we'd be spending about $5000 in oil to heat our entire 4800 sq ft condo building, plus hot water, in the Boston area. Our envelope heat loss is about 15 BTU/hr/sq ft on a zero-degree design day, which is good for an old house in this area.

    So if you live in a similar climate in a much smaller house, your biggest problem may be your leaky house envelope itself, and not an old boiler.

  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 12,200

    It is unlikely that replacing the boiler with any option would save enough to pay back in 15-18 years.

    It is worth figuring out if the system is designed correctly and if the burner is set up right but beyond things like that, changing equipment is likely to cost more than you will save.

    If you are also making dhw with the boiler, that could potentially be made to cut standby losses significantly for relatively little cost.

    delcrossvthesandsoftime
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,832

    Well that gets me a little farther along.

    First, switching from oil to LP will cost you money, no matter what boiler you put it, unless you are somewhere in the upper midwest where theye is enough agriculture to keep LP costs down.

    Second, you have a wonderful salesman somewhere. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that Crown boiler that a good technician can't fix. Further, it should be achieving at least 80%, not 60%, if a good technician is doing the adjusting. What that translates to, getting down to the dollars here, is that even putting in the whizziest new boiler, all singing, all dancing, and costing a good bit to maintain (the EK, the Navien, for example) might save you as much as a few hundred dollars a year — and that means it will take a decade or two to pay for the new boiler and installation in terms of fuel savings.

    Oh and I agree — this was not a mild winter, at least in the northeast.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    mattmia2thesandsoftime
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,800
    edited March 8

    What type of heat emitters do you have? If the home has been updated over the years the boiler and radiators you have may be oversized.

    If so a smaller boiler and maybe a lower operating temperature may make a mod con more attractive.

    It would be good to do a heatloss, maybe even an energy audit to find any leaks. $500 bucks worth of air sealing on a leaky home could say you some bucks over the next 15 years.

    Also check the fuel price history in your area see how oil and LP have matched up for maybe the past 10 years.

    https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_nus_w.htm

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ILikeEmOlder
    ILikeEmOlder Member Posts: 49
    edited March 8

    With high heating costs and\or comfort issues I like to start with the question: how much “pain” does it cause you?

    $5,000 to heat your home for a single winter would be very painful for most of the folks I work for, and it’s painful to hear that you’re having to spend as much to heat your home.

    In my own home, the combination of “going to be here for a long time” and a lot of pain from high energy bills led to a willingness to spend a lot of money to both dramatically increase our comfort and reduce home energy costs.

    Big picture: I’d find the best guy\gal in my area for the job, and I’d buy the best piece of equipment he is recommending for the job.

    If I were in your shoes right now: I would line up the site visit with the heating contractor. Before the site visit, I would determine where I could seal up and insulate cost-effectively, and then I would have the contractor size the equipment to the new load. I would run the numbers, based on the contractor’s chosen equipment, and decide whether a new boiler makes sense on the numbers alone.

    If a new boiler did not make sense on the numbers alone, then I would look at how the air sealing and insulation measures stacked up on paper.

    My bet is that your best path is to spend a chunk on air sealing and insulation measures, and another chunk on a mid-efficiency boiler that will reliably make it to the 20-year mark.

    FYI: The average job I take on significantly addresses envelope issues as a path to cost-effective heating solutions to high home energy costs.

    Swinging hammers and fitting pipe…bringing the dream to life

    jesmed1thesandsoftime
  • techforlife
    techforlife Member Posts: 120

    If you must replace, its System 2000. It is most cost effective, why pay for a Propane conversion? If you want to risk the old equip. it's a roll of the dice. Like Dirty harry asked " do you feel lucky? "

    SuperTech
  • thesandsoftime
    thesandsoftime Member Posts: 4
    edited March 13

    I've read all your comments, questions and opinions and value them. Thank you.

    It's come down to this: we're sticking with oil and we've narrowed it down to either a Peerless or the EK System 2000 Frontier. I do know that the EK is more proprietary and picky re: who can service it, but the service guy who's done our system for years and knows it is the very person who recommended it and would install it and — if he retires — he has backup at the same place he works, which has never let us down before. The Peerless would be an easy install, too. About $ more for the Frontier, and we're leaning that way. But…opinions still wanted.

  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 2,169
    edited March 13

    Why replace though? That decision’s rationale seems to missing here. I think there’s a conflation between expensive and efficient here.

  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,564

    I have a Peerless WBV-03 and it's a ok boiler but it's not even comparable to the EK System 2000. I wouldn't install anything else in my home if I had to replace my boiler. I work on dozens of both boilers and the homeowners who have the EK are always much happier with the energy efficiency of the EK.

    The EK isn't really any more complicated than other boilers. When they are installed and setup properly the annual maintenance is a lot easier than other boilers. If you ever have any issues you won't find better customer service and technical support than what EK provides.

    I also feel like a Navien would be something to avoid like the plague.

    jringelclammyszwedj
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,226

    Forget about peerless there just about done and will be ancient mayan history within a few years if that long . Spend the money get a ek and in the future either you or the next owner can switch from oil to gas being ek is approved for either fuel unlike most oil fired cast iron boilers. Also i believe that a ek may be set up as direct vent possibly so either chimney lining or direct vent . The other biggy is built in america off shelf parts and compared to most mod con boiler it does not have a 10 to 15 year life expectancy and should in all likelyhood out live most who post here and unless a idiot most can service there boilers that is if they are not clueless which is hit or miss these days . Do yourself and the next owner a favor forget about mod cons unless your system is designed for low temp the pay back will come just as its time to replace . One of the most important issue is tech service which i know from this site which the owner of ek watches is beyond the tops in comparison to larger boiler manufacturers ek gives you answers period and from my limited dealings with are on point . Forget about naviens disposable drive by boilers

    peace and good luck clammy

    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

    mattmia2PeteAbburdSuperTech
  • Grallert
    Grallert Member Posts: 939
    edited March 13

    Though I prefer Buderus boiler I must say the fact that EK folks will respond here on this sight is a big comfort. The Peerless is unfortunately an antique.

    Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,676

    A pin type HX boiler like the WBV, GO from WM, V8 from Burnham "et al". They're only as good as the improved burners and aquastats that are attached to them. The blocks are long obsolete. 3 pass or an EK.

    SuperTech
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,483

    I don't scoff at pin boilers. May do scoff at them and continue to install then. They usually last and 82% efficiency is not bad and they are for the lower priced market.

    If you had to sell your house and the new owner wanted a new boiler and you agreed to make a deal with them where you put one in at cost to get the sale are you still going EK? Doubt it.

    jesmed1LRCCBJ
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,225
    edited March 14

    I know people don't like to clean pin boilers, but we continue to get 82-85% dry gas efficiency on our two Weil McLains, and after 30 years of consistently very low return water temps, we're only missing one or two pins. Maybe not sexy, but they're pretty damn bulletproof.

    LRCCBJ
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,564

    The problem with installing a pin type boiler like a WBV, WGO or Burnham V8 is why would you when you can get a 3 pass Pure Pro Trio or Utica Tri Fire for pretty much the same cost?

    If buying the least expensive boiler is the deciding factor a pin type Crown boiler is probably going to be less expensive than the WBV, WGO or V8.

    clammy
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,676

    I don't mind cleaning them. They're easy. It's not so much combustion efficiency, but standby losses. Most who opt for a pin type are also getting a tankless coil. And needing to maintain temperature automatically puts it in the backseat. I understand the need for them. There are plenty of houses that couldn't accept an indirect or any tank water heater without renovation. A boiler with a coil is sometimes the only option. I could get 82-85% out of a vertical tube dry base steel boiler too. And save even more up front.

  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,564

    @HVACNUT can you even get a dry base steel boiler anymore? I work on a bunch of them but it seems like they are all at least 20 years old. Builders loved them because they were the least expensive option.

  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 1,225
    edited March 14

    @HVACNUT said:

    "It's not so much combustion efficiency, but standby losses. Most who opt for a pin type are also getting a tankless coil. And needing to maintain temperature automatically puts it in the backseat."

    I understand the tankless coil inefficiency. Fortunately we have a separate water heater, so we dodged that bullet.

    @SuperTech said:

    "The problem with installing a pin type boiler like a WBV, WGO or Burnham V8 is why would you when you can get a 3 pass Pure Pro Trio or Utica Tri Fire for pretty much the same cost?"

    I had looked at the Buderus and Biasi B10 3-pass boilers as possible replacements when our WGO's wear out. But I hadn't heard of the Pure Pro Trio or the Utica Tri Fire, so thanks for mentioning those. Either one could be a good option for us.

    The Biasi B10 is no longer sold here, but the cutaway schematic of the Trio sections looks a lot like the Biasi sections. And the Trio website says the Trio is "assembled in PA" with a warranty from Boyertown Furnace Co. So I wonder if they're buying the B10 castings from Biasi and making Trios from them.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,680

    @jesmed1 said-

    "I had looked at the Buderus and Biasi B10 3-pass boilers as possible replacements when our WGO's wear out. But I hadn't heard of the Pure Pro Trio or the Utica Tri Fire, so thanks for mentioning those. Either one could be a good option for us.

    The Biasi B10 is no longer sold here, but the cutaway schematic of the Trio sections looks a lot like the Biasi sections. And the Trio website says the Trio is "assembled in PA" with a warranty from Boyertown Furnace Co. So I wonder if they're buying the B10 castings from Biasi and making Trios from them."

    Correct. Boyertown Furnace also sells these as the Solaia. They're nice boilers, and you can fire them with oil or gas.

    And for those who really, seriously need a coil, there's now a 3-pass with a coil called the Solaia Forte:

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.columbiaheating.com/residential-boilers/solaia-forte/1%20Solaia%20forte%20literature.pdf

    And don't forget the Energy Kinetics boilers.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    jesmed1SuperTech
  • Jim_M
    Jim_M Member Posts: 1

    I signed up today to ask the same type of question regarding future replacement of a hot water baseboard heating system boiler. BUT, my comment here is actually about use of the boiler for domestic hot water. We have a Buderus boiler and had an indirect hot water tank supplied from that. Our annual oil use over an 18 year period averaged 725 gallons. We switched domestic hot water to a heat pump water heater and for the 3 years since, our oil use is averaging 425 gallons!

  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,564

    @Jim_M that's quite a big difference. My indirect water heater accounts for a small percentage of my oil use. How has the electric water heater affected your electric bill? You must use a lot of hot water.

    jringel
  • jimna01
    jimna01 Member Posts: 45

    HO here so I won’t go into specific brands etc. The pro’s here have way more experience obviously but they seem pretty consistent on recommendations . That being said in 2006 I replaced my circa 1960 Crane Sunnyday boiler with an 85% AFUE 3 pass cast iron boiler and dropped my oil consumption from 950 gallons per year to 550 gallons per year. That was a lot of heat going up the chimney. And yes the old and new boilers are serviced annually by pros.

    HVACNUTEdTheHeaterManSuperTechclammy
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,335

    Columbia Emerald series is a steel fire tube boiler that sits on top of a combustion chamber.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    SuperTech