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Near boiler piping

KJB
KJB Member Posts: 36

Hey everyone,

I've been lurking for a while and taking plenty of notes. I have a question about a drop header. I've recently moved into a house with a Utica steam boiler PEG112CDE which is 112500 btu. Since moving in I've had to repitch the condensate return line and repipe the NBP. It wasn't until afterward that I found out about the drop header from watching one of Dan's seminars. I'd like to redo that part of the NBP and had a couple questions. 1)How high can I go from the top of the boiler to the first 90° elbow? Dan says 24". If I have more room, would it hurt to go higher?

2) Also he talked about having the steam header bigger than the steam outlets of the boiler. The steam outlet out of each side of the boiler are 2". Could I do a 3" header? How high should the actual header be from the top of the boiler?

3)I'am definitely not a plumber or pipe fitter. With that being said, how do I pitch the steam header from the far steam outlet of the boiler back to the equalizer line? Do you just make the furthest line from the equalization line slightly taller than the next one? And how much pitch should it have? It's about a 3' steam header.

Thanks in advance.

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Comments

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,637
    edited February 23

    Why are you replacing your recent work? If your header is the required distance from the water line, your piping follows the manufacturer's recommendations and the system is working well, you'll be spending much time and money and adding additional supply pipe friction quite unnecessarily.

    A drop header is generally used when you lack the overhead clearance to place the header the required height from the water line.

    You can certainly pipe a 3" or 4" header, but you may not achieve any added benefit from it. Again, how is the system operating and what improvement do you seek?

    Why not post a photo here and see what recommendations you get? And do tell us more about the system.

    ScottSecordelcrossv
  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    After watching the video Dan posted with the glass piping on the boiler, I figured it might help with water carryover. I'm getting hammering, and figured this couldn't hurt. I ordered 2 gorton #2 air vents for my steam and condensate returns. The steam air vent still hisses a little while the boiler is steaming. The condensate return piping takes quite a while to get hot.

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    I should clarify. There is 1 air vent on the condensate return pipe, and 1 air vent on the steam piping return.

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,637
    edited February 23

    We would have to see a diagram or photo of your piping to offer much else of value.

    Have you priced 3" domestic cast elbows and tees? Like repairing an automobile, throwing parts at problem isn't an efficient way to diagnose.

    Let's figure out why you're getting the hammering… If you repiped the header and risers to the manufacturer's recommendations, your problem really isn't likely your header or risers.

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,305

    I had that same boiler and was able to get the water quality good enough that it didn't surge despite a very horrible near boiler piping. You don't need a drop header. Like everyone is saying, send some pics

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Long Beach Ed
  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    I'm at work right now, but when I get home I will take some pics. Thanks

    ethicalpaul
  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    I had a company come out and do a blow down on the boiler and put a quart of 8 way cleaner in it. I didn't have a skim port on it at the time, but it does now. After they left, the boiler was hammering like crazy. I decided to call the manufacturer and ask about the ratio of 8 way to gallons of water it's treating. On the bottle it says 1 quart treats (up to) 30 gallons. Common sense told me that if my boiler and associated piping hold roughly 5.5 gallons, I only needed about 5-6 ounces of 8 way, and not the 32 ounces they put in. It sounded like I was boiling tomato soup and not water. I decided to keep the 8 way out of the system until I can figure out what's going on. I think it could use a good pressure washing too.

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    Btw, the manufacturer of 8 way told me that my thinking of the ratio was correct. The water was so purple after they dumped that quart in there. It was unbelievable.

    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,305
    edited February 23

    Yeah a quart is about 8 times more than you'd ever want to think about putting in that boiler.

    8 way by itself doesn't cause surging, even too much (I have proven it) but if you add it to dirty water or a boiler with a lot of sediment/scale, it can most definitely cause it as I also experienced.

    You can keep it out but in my experience, here's the best way:

    1. Add 4-6 ounces of 8-way.
    2. Let the boiler run and watch the water level
    3. If the water level dives, that is surging due to the 8-way freeing up rust and "mud" (which is also rust, but more like silty rust).
    4. Drain a decent amount of water, possibly all of it (as you said, your boiler is quite small and it's not hard to drain).
    5. Refill it and go back to step one.

    Now these steps might take several days, or they might happen immediately. Soon though, less and less "stuff" will get freed by the 8-way and the boiler won't be surging anymore and you will have a nice maintenance amount of 8-way in the boiler. The water will be clear with a purple tint. The corrosion under the water line will nearly cease and "mud"/brown water production will stop.

    At this point, don't drain any more, and minimize leaks in order to minimize the introduction of fresh water. Once per year you can drain a little bit until clear but it will probably be less than 1/2 gallon, and that's a Good Thing

    Edit: and yes if it needs skimming due to oils on the water, that needs to happen before all of these steps

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Long Beach Ed
  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    I've skimmed it about 3 times now. With very slow stream/drip coming out. Each time was about 2 hours. The last 2 times I skimmed, I definitely saw some oil sliding off the water coming out. I could only see it for maybe a minute once the water started flowing. The oil did look weird though. Like patches of oil flowing out

    Long Beach Ed
  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    Is there a certain amount of time you should wait in between skimming?

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,637
    edited February 23

    If you don't see any more oil flowing out and the water line is stable, you're done.

    You can try another day, but that should be it.

    When I do a new boiler with lots of piping, I usually skim for a few hours, run the boiler for a day or two in cold weather and then skim again and I'm good. It may work faster if you use a cleaner. I don't.

    ethicalpaul
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,230

    Headers need no pitch it just makes thing more difficult and looks stupid. You can use a drop header if you want but no one has ever proven that if the NBP is done in accordance with the MFG requirements that it won't work.

    ethicalpaul
  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    The first time I skimmed I didn't see much of anything. The next 2 times, it was like a blob that had a copper color to it was floating out on top of the water.

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    One other thing to note. I had about 30' of the steam header piping replaced because it had holes in it. That was a nice gift. I'm waiting for insulation to reinsulate that. That particular piping that is uninsulated is in the further most corner of the house and furthest from the boiler. It's also in a Michigan crawl. 2/3 of the basement is normal block wall basement, and the other 1/3 is a crawl. After just watching another of Dan's videos, he talks about the steam condensing when it hits cold uninsulated piping and that's what causes the hammering. After watching that video, I'm pretty sure that is a big contribute to the hammering. I'm also getting some good fluctuations in the sight glass also

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,305

    That's good. You don't have to run it extremely slow or dripping, you're just costing yourself time. I've seen boiler manufacturers recommend about 1 gallon a minute

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,305

    You said 30' of steam header, I think you mean "main".

    How cold is the crawl space? It's probably good to insulate it. If you have banging there I would suspect a low spot that is collecting water.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    It is definitely colder in the crawl, than the rest of the basement. The piping that was replaced, was all in the crawl. With it being in the teens and 20's, I thought maybe the steam was condensing in the main on the way to the radiator because of it not being insulated and that was causing the hammering. The hammering is coming from the area where there is no insulation.

  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,351

    You said the outlets of the boiler were 2". Are you sure there is not a reducing bushing in the boiler outlet? This is a common cheat as 2 1/2" fittings/piping is much more expensive. Plus few tradesman can thread 2 1/2".

    If you are using both outlets that is a plus. Removing those bushings can be a bear to deal with.

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    It's 2" from the boiler outlets to the main. No reducers or bushings

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,305

    that’s good observation. Get good 1” insulation be aware it doesn’t heat the pipe it only slows the cooling.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    techforlife
  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    I was thinking of using 2" thick insulation in the crawl and 1"in the rest of the basement when I redo that part.

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,637
    edited February 23

    If you look up heat loss from insulated pipe you'll find minimal difference between the losses with 1" insulation and losses with 2" insulation.

    techforlifeethicalpaul
  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    I don't know what I would do with that info. I just figured the crawl area would get the thicker insulation. Is using 2" thick insulation overkill?

    techforlife
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,637
    edited February 23

    Have you considered posting photos of your boiler header piping so we can try to diagnose this?

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    I will as soon as I get home. I'm still at work.....unfortunately

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,637
    edited February 24

    That looks like you did a good job. I don't see anything in that boiler piping that would present hammering or wet steam.

    Which leave several considerations:

    • Water quality - you are working on this. Does the water level in the sight glass remain generally stable?
    • Boiler sizing - Is the boiler sized correctly to the connected load?
    • Venting - It sounds like you are working on this.
    • Distribution piping - Paul mentioned this. Steam mains pitched to the returns? No sags that can accumulate pockets of water? Measure down from the floor, stretch a string or use a Laser level.

    Can we help you understand or assess any of these?

    I only see one steam main leaving the header, but it looks like there are two returns. Is there a second main, and how does it connect to the boiler?

    Anyone see deficiencies in this boiler piping?

  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 887

    Anyone see deficiencies in this boiler piping?

    Hard to skim it………….😁

    Long Beach Ed
  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    Im thinking the boiler might be undersized. I'll have to calculate that. Do you happen to have a good way to figure that out?

    Water in the sight glass is a little turbulent. The sight glass was new as of a month ago. I bought the whole kit with new valves also. When the boiler starts up, the level will get close to the low water cut off, and sometimes trip it. I'm hoping getting the bigger vent on there will help get the steam into the radiators, and return the condensate quicker to the boiler. (Not sure if my logic is correct there)

    The condensate return wasn't pitched properly but has since been fixed. It still seems like it takes quite a while to get warm. The other return pipe is off the steam main. That's the one that usually vents while the boiler is steaming.

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,637
    edited February 24

    If you read through this thread:

    Sizing

    EdtheHeaterMan explains how to measure your radiators and read your boiler size. This will tell you if your boiler is undersized or oversized. This information is very important in evaluating system performance.

    Clean that slop out of the boiler until the water is clear. Skim it until the oil's gone, change it, until it's clear. The disappearing water level may be caused by dirty water. It's certainly not clean in the photo.

    I see where one steam main starts at the boiler header. Where does the second steam main start? How long are these steam mains?

    Where can I get those Russian submarine valves?

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    How long should I wait in between skimming?

    There is about 100' of main steam piping. The boiler is in the corner of the basement. The vertical main steam line that jumps off the header tees off at the main, and the steam main runs both ways around the basement. Hope that makes sense.

    On a Russian submarine of course.

  • yellowdog
    yellowdog Member Posts: 250

    Were there any issues before you had someone come in and do the work you have mentioned? Seems like everything you are mentioning started happening after they were there.

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    There was literally a 2" gash in the steam main that was replaced. Lots of hammering from that. There were 2 radiators (basically where the piping that was replaced) that never worked. After the piping was replaced, they intermittently worked. The condensate and steam main returns are right in that area too. Once we got the pitch right on those return lines to the boiler, those radiators started working. I'm really starting to lean towards the 30' of pipe that's not insulated.

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    I've seen people with homemade wands they shove in the boiler with a pinched angled end to it and rip all the garbage out of it. I'm sure there has to be a lot of silt on the bottom that isn't coming out from just blowing down. Anyone have experience doing this?

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,305

    The fact that steam main rusted out (I assume that's what you mean by gash), indicates that there may have been a low spot or sag in that area of the main which made it collect water which is why it rusted out.

    The sag may still be there which could cause hammering and also intermittent operation of radiators past that spot (depending on how bad the possible sag is)

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    When that section was replaced, they did pitch it correctly. Before that , I could hear water sloshing around in the return lines.

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    I will put a level on that section to verify though. I just ordered some insulation for the piping that got replaced. I won't have it til Wednesday though.

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,305

    When the boiler starts up, the level will get close to the low water cut off, and sometimes trip it.

    I missed this part before. That's not turbulent, what that is, is water is getting thrown out of your boiler up into your main pipes. It's called "surging" and it's not good. You want your water level to move only an inch or so maximum during steam production.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • KJB
    KJB Member Posts: 36

    I was thinking the bigger air vents would help get the condensate back to the boiler quicker. The condensate return line is cold for quite some time after it starts up.