York Furnace - 3 Weeks & No Heat - What Parts?
I've got a York tg9s060b12mp11b furnace in a section of my house that used to be used as an in-law apartment, and is now used as an office. The inducer fan ceased, and rather than try to replace it myself I called my propane company, Suburban. They came and replaced the part, but found that the "gas valve, and low gas pressure switch" are also not working and need to be replaced.
It's been 3 weeks, and they're not returning my calls or emails. Pipes are coming close to freezing at night and space heaters aren't cutting it. I was hoping to find out what parts I need. I looked up the model on RepairClinic, but I'm not sure what parts they're referring to above. I think at this point I need to try replacing them myself. They look like readily available parts, so I'm not sure why they're not returning my calls.
I appreciate any help!
Comments
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Did you look at the old inducer fan, was it seized? Sounds like either they misdiagnosed it or put it back together wrong. Is it back together? What happens when it tries to fire?
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When it failed, they initially came out he tried to manually turn the fan, it wouldn't budge, and he said "yes. its toast". That's when they ordered the new fan and replaced it. I wasn't there when he said the additional parts needed to be replaced, but I was told that they used a volt meter and there were power issues with those two additional parts. They said on the invoice "possible when motor cease it shorted the above". Prior to them coming out to replace the fan, it would sound like it was firing, but the motor wouldn't turn on, and then it would all shut off and cycle again.
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I also just went to fire it up to see what it's doing now, but they left his part unplugged with the purple wire. Anyone know what it is so I can try to plug it back in? I couldn't see where it plugs into but the wire is short. The good news is the fan is now spinning when it wasn't before.
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Show us the schematic. Does that device screw in to the gas manifold or is it just mounted in front of it? Kind of looks like a spill or rollout switch. Can you take some pictures from the top and side of the device?
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The purple wire is a pressure switch. Not needed on natural gas furnaces. That switch is added when the furnace was converted to LP Gas. the idea is that if your propane tanks is low on gas, then the pressure will drop. operating a propane furnace with low pressure can cause problems like soot and excess carbon monoxide (CO), therefore the low pressure switch shuts off the gas valve if the gas pressure drops to low. Connecting those purple wires is not necessary to operate the furnace and test the other components.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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I looked at the manual for your furnace and see that there may be some manual reset rollout switches that need to be reset. Here are some possible rollout switch locations on your furnace.
The reset button is located between the two wires that are connected to the switch. A light push should reset the switch. if you feel a slight click when you press the reset button then that switch was tripped and is now reset. If you do not feel a slight click when you push the reset, then the switch was not tripped and your problem is elsewhere.
It appears that your other wiring is in shape to test the burner and see if you have fixed the problem.
Once you have a successful result you will need to connect the low pressure switch to have the furnace in a safe operating condition. Let me know haw you make out with the manual reset switches.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thanks @EdTheHeaterMan and @mattmia2 .
This is a propane furnace, so I think the wires do apply? Have attached a photo to show what the purple wire is plug into. And it's some piece of electronics that is threaded into the supply pipe.
I've also attached to wiring diagram, but I couldn't see any purple wires listed on it at all and the wires that are disconnected are purple.
I will try those reset switches shortly but please let me know what you think with the updated information. Thanks very much!
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The purple wires are not a part of the factory diagram. They are in the LP conversion kit instructions.
were either of the spill switches tripped?
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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That schematic doesn't show the propane conversion switch, but to connect it you'll need to unplug one of the yaller wires that connect to to the gas valve (either one) & connect the yaller wire that you unplugged to the purple wire with the male connector & the the other purple wire to where you unplugged the yaller wire from. When the propane pressure is correct, the switch is closed & the gas valve is allowed to open.
If the pressure drops to an unsafe level, the switch opens & the gas valve is not allowed to open. The control board will notice that the flames aren't flaming & will lock out after a few tries.
It's going to be pretty hard to do much more diagnostics without a multimeter.
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It doesn't show the pressure switch for the gas. It could be in series with any of the safety chains or the gas valve itself. Look to see if all of the safety chains are connected, the limit switch, the combustion pressure switches, the rollout switches. Make sure both wires to the gas valve connect back to the control board.
If it doesn't fire, what error does it get?
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Here is a new diagram to print out and tape it to your gas furnace
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thanks again for the additional info.
I just checked the two spill switches and neither of them made any noise or even moved when I pushed them in.
I connected the purple wires and yellow wires as shown in the diagram, so now they're connected to the gas valve.
When firing the furnace, I see the rod glow red, but it never ignores any gas. It tries a few times and then resets. Finally is stops trying and fires up the fan inside the ducts and blows cold air, running as if everything were normal.
The green light then then turns red is counting to number 7, which I believe is a faulty gas valve or pressure valve as suspected by the propane company. Should I order replacements for these parts?
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Is there a on/off switch on the gas valve? make sure that is turned on. But it appears that you have a defective gas valve for now. Do you have a multi meter? Can you see if you are getting 24 VAC at the wires that feed the gas valve? (one purple and one yellow) just before the ignitor glow stops. If you have 24 VAC for about 6 to 9 seconds just as the ignitor glow stops, then you have a bad valve. If you don't get 24 VAC to the gas valve wires, then a new gas valve will not work either. you need 24 VAC to get the valve to work.
If you dont get 24 VAC to the purple and yellow wire, then do the test gain and see if you get 24 VAC to the yellow and yellow wire from the control board. if you don't get 24 VAC from the control board to the yellow wires, then the board may be the problem.
You need to be sure whet part is bad or you will just be firing the parts canon at the problem until you make a direct hit with the right part. That can be costly.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Check for 24vac to the gas valve while it is trying to fire. Could be the valve but it is likely something else. Then the next thing is to check the switches with an ohmmeter. The pressure switches will take checking with a voltmeter while it is trying to fire.
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Thanks again! @EdTheHeaterMan and @mattmia2 .I tested both wires going into the valve with a multimeter.
It read 25 when the glow started, and a few seconds in it jumped up to 44, and then a few seconds later it jumped to 66. I counted 6 seconds from the time it got to 66 until the glow stopped, and then it went back down to 25.
I don't know what to make of this, but I believe this is what the propane company tested and determined that the gas valve and also the low pressure gas valve had errors with their multimeter.
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Check the ground and the neutral from the panel to the control board. Also check for miswiring or chaffed or melted wires. Sounds like the power for the ignitor is shorting to the low energy wiring somehow. Check the voltage to the furnace from the circuit. You are measuring ac volts, right?
Make sure all the wiring is hooked up where the schematic shows it too.
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is your meter set to measure DC voltage? That would be the wrong scale. You are measuring ~24 V AC. Set the meter to measure AC voltage
You should get zero voltage until the igniter is near the end of the warm-up cycle. Then you should get 24 V AC for about 5 to 8 seconds. If the flame ignites, and the flame sensor recognizes that there is a flame within eight seconds then the valve will stay open. Since you will not have a flame with the wires disconnected from the valve, then after eight seconds, you will lose 24 V AC on those yellow wires. Then the control will start over after a post purge timer expires
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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It appears as though I was testing the wires incorrectly the first time. This time I disconnected the two yellow wires and put the probes into the ends on those wires. You mentioned that it should read zero before the glow rod lights up, but it did not, there is constant power being sent to those wires that reads 13.8. is this normal? Once the rod starts glowing, after a little bit I hear a little tick and then I see the voltage on my meter jump up to 25 and it stays there for approximately 7 seconds and then goes back to 13.8. does this mean it's not the gas valve?
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That means it could be the gas valve. If you can connect it to the gas valve and still connect the probes and you still get the 25vac and the valve doesn't at least click, either it is the valve or one of the connectors isn't making contact. The latter seems more likely since it was working before the inducer fan failed. Are you measuring at the valve or at the input to the pressure switch? Could try moving that toggle switch from an atari 2600 a couple times too.
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I'm not sure why you have the 13.8 volts. Unless the meter you have is auto ranging and is changing to different scale and is measuring millivolts. that would explain the 13.8 reading. but the fact that you get ~24 volts AC for about 7 seconds means that you have a defective gas valve. The ultimate test is to put a temporary 24 volt to the gas valve and see if it opens. That is not something I would do with it connected to the natural gas. I would remove the valve from the heater and blow thru the valve. It should not let you blow thru the valve. Then with 24 VAC direct from the transformer to the gas valve with all other safety devices disconnected. Just 24 VAC to the gas valve direct while it is in your hand. Then try to blow thru the valve. If you can blow thru the valve then the valve is working and you have other problems. Verify before you just fire the parts cannon.
Let me know the result of your test
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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It was disconnected from the valve so the 13.8v is just stray voltage induced on the wire from other things. If there were a load on it like the valve then it would go to 0.
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Thanks again @mattmia2 and @EdTheHeaterMan .
I was able to strip away a little bit of the plastic on the connector so that I could stick the probes in and test them at the gas valve while it was calling for heat and the rod was glowing. It did the same exact thing and gave me 25v until 7 seconds was over and then it went back down to 13 or 14.
I did try moving that Atari toggle switch a bunch of times and it didn't seem to change anything, haha.
When I am doing, I am doing it at the gas valve connectors. I'm not even sure about the two low pressure cutoff devices, or if these are the correct ones? I tried testing those for ohms, and they both had readings that were bounding around while it was calling for heat, so I don't know much about those. Photos attached though.
As far testing the gas valve, I have a transformer I could use tomorrow, but at this point I am thinking it's got to be that the valve was fried when they replaced the inducer motor. They seem to think according to their notes that when the motor failed, it caused something else to fail. Not sure.
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Here is the actual part you need to replace on Amazon 36J24-206. You can try the local supply houses near you to see if there is a valve that is close to your valve with the same specifications . but I would be cautious with a different number unless it says that it is a replacement for the 36J24-206 in the accompanying documents. There may be slight changes like Slow opening or Fast opening or Staged opening that are not compatible with your furnace design. Other changes like the pipe opening size from 3/4" to 1/2" can be compatible with the addition of a 3/4 x 1/2 bushing or coupling without a problem.
But if you can wait for the delivery of the Amazon valve then order that one today or pay the extra freight for fast delivery.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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you cab test the valve with an ohmmeter with the wires disconnected, it should be probably in the tens to hundreds of ohms.
you would have to use the ac voltmeter to test the pressure switches with them powered. you would see 24vac across them when they are open and 0vac when they are closed. the power from the circuit will prevent the ohmmeter from measuring them with the circuit powered
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this might sound like a stupid question but are they sure you have gas to the gas valve? anybody check? you could have a gas cock closed and not realize it.
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Don't worry about the other switches or limits, …as long as you are getting ~24 VAC at the valve and the valve is not opening, then the valve needs to be replaced. Are you sure that the valve is not opening? Do you hear a click and no gas comes out? Are you sure that the gas pressure is there at the valve? Crack the union open to see if there is a hiss and you smell gas. If you don't have gas pressure at the valve inlet, the a new valve will not make gas pressure happen. AFTER THAT TEST, TIGHTEN THE UNION IN ORDER TO STOP THE LEAK EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE PRESSURE. That way when the pressure is restored, you will not have a Gas Leak.
I remember when one of my friendly competitors called me after spending several hours trying to figure out why a gas furnace was not operating. I arrived and did some quick observations.
- There were boxes on the floor like this person was just moving in to the home
- I went to the gas range and turned on the burner to find that the gas range also did not work
- I went outside to find the gas meter was locked off.
- I asked the homeowner if they contacted the gas company to have the gas service placed in their name.
- I explained that the problem will be fixed when the gas company turns on the gas meter.
- I was gone in less than 15 minutes
- I billed my competitor customer for a minimum service call fee and discounted it as a professional curtesy.
I also busted on him big time, the next time I saw him at the supply house
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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if the pressure switch on the supply is working and there is 24vac at the valve itself then either there is pressure or the switch is stuck
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You can't just assume the pressure switch hasn't failed or has sediment plugging the connection. It needs to be checked. Devices fail all the time. I have a hard time believing that a bad inducer motor shorted out the gas valve and pressure switch. that doesn't make sense but stranger things have happened. what's that saying? occams razor. ( I originally spelled it Arkham razor lol)
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I needed to google Ockham's Razor. because I use a Norelco electric Razor myself. Interesting concept. And it looks like this Ockham guy was pretty clean shaven in this rendering:
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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The tech needs a manometer. I've had two calls with exceedingly high inlet pressure on LP this season. Replacing the gas valve alone won't solve that if it's not ruled out. All HVAC techs should have a manometer.
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I agree, gas pressure measurements should be taken before we jump to any conclusions about what parts need to be replaced. A manometer would also be helpful for troubleshooting any pressure switch issues, setting the gas pressure on the new valve if it's needed as well as measuring airflow when that gas valve is replaced and the combustion analysis performed to ensure the system is operating safely.
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Thanks for all the comments everyone! I think I've got a manometer actually.. any advice on how to use it on this situation? I'm still unsure about which one is the pressure switch. I will upload the photo again. There are two things that I assumed were pressure switches and I'm not sure what to do to test it or which one it is.
There are no shut off valves between the tank and the gas valve inside the furnace (I didn't install the line, Suburban did). The tanks are working fine for all my other appliances, but I'll check everything again and I'll also crack the union and try that.
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Both of these in this pic are pressure switches. I would expect them to be open before the inducer starts & closed as soon as it's running. Since the ignitor gets hot, we know for sure that they're operating correctly.
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So neither of these are the issue, since the ignitor gets red? I'm thinking it must be the gas valve then?
I tested for gas. I was mistaken, there is a shut off and also a port to test for gas. There is propane being delivered to the furnace and so I won't crack the union until I know what to do next
. Photo attached.
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It's sounding more & more like the gas valve, but that takes more than a manometer to verify it's safely set up.
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@EdTheHeaterMan suggested that I take off the gas valve and try blowing through it. Is there a way I can test this or should I just order the replacement part and get it over with? I can't order from Amazon because they'll take a week to get to me and Vermont but I could probably order from SupplyHouse and have it here tomorrow.
As far as the manometer, I haven't located it yet but it's somewhere on my property. But I did try pulling off the hoses connected to the pressure switches and when I pulled them off the ignotor stopped getting hot, so I'm assuming that those precious switches are working properly.
Thanks!
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Three weeks!!? How close are they. Maybe it's time to pay them a visit at their place of business and ask if they would allow for their house to be without heat for that long? Then ask when they will be there to correct everything so they don't have to have you come knocking any longer? Politely, of course.
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Its all too common in VT, unfortunately. Even the utility companies will tell you to go F yourself if your pipes are freezing and you complain that you've been waiting too long for a repair. I just went through this with my oil company over the summer when my steam boiler failed. Luckily, @Charlie from wmass saved us and put in a new boiler. I'm determined to fix this furnace myself though. At this point I can't wait any longer for the propane company.
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Ifi take the gas valve off, the new one is going on.
Just order it & get it swapped.
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