York Furnace - 3 Weeks & No Heat - What Parts?
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Ive ordered a replacement gas valve. I'll pull off the current one shortly and take a look at it, and at least try blowing into it like Ed suggested. The new part should be here tomorrow if the storm tomorrow doesn't stop UPS from coming up my driveway.
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So I've got some more information. I took off the gas valve per the suggestions from @EdTheHeaterMan . With the valve removed I am unable to blow through it while holding it in my hand. I connected the electrical terminals on the valve to a 24 volt transformer that was left over from old zone valves on my steam system, and I confirmed that 24 volts was being received at the gas valve. I tried blowing through it again and was unable to. There's also no clicking noise or any indication that it's receiving any sort of signal from the 24 volts. I think that this confirms it is indeed the gas valve?
That said, I am curious if I can take it apart and see if something's wrong on the inside maybe and fix it? I do have the new one on order from supplyhouse.com using the item number given to me by Ed, but his was on Amazon and it specified that it included the propane kit, the one on supply house did not. I'm afraid that it will not include something it's supposed to.
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Then it is a bad valve!!!
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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You can take the gas valve apart to look at it & see what's wrong, but you can't put it back together & use it after that. Too much risk, if anything went wrong you'd be liable. Including after any sale you might make in the future.
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If the pressure is too high the gas valve's regulator will just shut down the flow too, to high can also be a problem.
Does it click when the 24vac goes to the valve?
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you are liable for this, but i might take a look at how the coils hook to the terminals and see if you can see a wire broken there without actually opening it up.
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Hey guys! I've got an update for you all. I have heat, with abother problem.
UPS delivered the part a day late which is why I'm only posting this today. The snow screwed things up. I took everything apart and put it all back together with the new gas valve.
I got it all reinstalled but the same exact thing was still happening. The ignitor rod would glow and then it would stop without firing.
So I removed the purple wires that @mattmia2 and @EdTheHeaterMan mentioned early on in my post were a part of the propane conversion, or something like that. They connect to some piece of eletronics threaded into a 1/2" nipple after the union.
Without the purple wires from that electronic device connected to the gas valve, and just the yellow wires going into the gas valve everything works as it should and I have heat again.
This must be some sort of safety device or something? For now I have heat but please let me know what I should do to make sure I fix this piece if it is necessary. Photos attached on how things are now with it working. Thanks!
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It may be working but running it this way is not the way the manufacturer designed it. This safety feature ensure that the furnace is not run with no or too low pressure in your propane tank. It could be as simple as a clogged orifice or the diapham below the micro switch is hardened and it is not flexing enough to close the contact or if you've had any work done on your propane system since the last time this furnace was running there may be too much of a pressure drop in the gas lines for this to operate according to spec.
You've come this far so it's worth investigating a little more to get this safety feature back into the circuit where it belongs. They are sold at supplyhouse in case you do determine the switch needs replacing.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/York-S1-1NP0347-Natural-to-LP-Conversion-Kit?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=Shopping_Heating&utm_campaign=Shopping_X_Heating_X_SSC_ClassB/C&utm_campaignid=21633352521&utm_adgroupid=167295571915&utm_targetid=aud-754990415701:pla-2350258627814&utm_product_id=S1-1NP0347&utm_matchtype=&utm_keyword=&utm_adtype=pla&utm_category=Heating&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-5a9BhCBARIsACwMkJ78AAlwujyhoJfUslyg-b_2hjG40XgNFlxnsZCqoH-b8dn-YMGvV20aAt0hEALw_wcB
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https://www.supplyhouse.com/York-S1-1NP0347-Natural-to-LP-Conversion-Kit?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=Shopping_Heating&utm_campaign=Shopping_X_Heating_X_SSC_ClassB/C&utm_campaignid=21633352521&utm_adgroupid=167295571915&utm_targetid=aud-754990415701:pla-2350258627814&utm_product_id=S1-1NP0347&utm_matchtype=&utm_keyword=&utm_adtype=pla&utm_category=Heating&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA-5a9BhCBARIsACwMkJ78AAlwujyhoJfUslyg-b_2hjG40XgNFlxnsZCqoH-b8dn-YMGvV20aAt0hEALw_wcB
sorry I must have pasted the link wrong
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Thanks for the part link. I had this taken apart when I was replacing the gas valve, and I could see the diaphragm you're talking about inside the pipe and it looked clean to me. Do you know if there is any way to test this with a multimeter to make sure the electronics arent fried on it before I order a replacement?
I will definitely make sure to continue fixing it until it runs as it should.
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If I remember correctly the LP Gas Company diagnosed the gas valve and the low pressure switch is defective in your very first post. Assuming that they may be wrong, I asked you to remove the gas valve and blow through it with 24 VAC connected. That proved the gas valve is defective. You can operate the furnace without the low pressure switch for now, but you need to order that switch and replace it at your earliest convenience. That switch is to protect the furnace from operating if the propane tank is near empty. So get it back on there as soon as you can. You should also look at how much propane is in the tank right now. If it is lower than 10% then you have to shut off the furnace until you get the tank filled. Otherwise you may have problems that will cost you more $$$ to fix because the heater is operating with low gas pressure.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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" They came and replaced the part, but found that the "gas valve, and low gas pressure switch" are also not working and need to be replaced. "
So it was exactly as the service company said. Although three things failing at the same time seems odd.
If the pressure is correct I would imagine the switch will be closed. Pressure drops the switch opens shutting off the gas valve.
S1-1NP0347 – LP Conversion Kit Kit Install paperwork
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
you should check the gas pressure with the manometer, the pressure switch could be open because the pressure is low.
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someone that knows combustion needs to set up the new gas valve
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These gas valve and low pressure switch are exactly what they said was needing replacement. I was able to get help diagnosing the gas valve so far, but havent figured out how to check the low pressure switches yet.
They also didn't specify which pressure switch to replace, and there are two on my system. Photo attached.
I've got a manometer I can use to test anything suggested, but nobody that knows combustion is going to come help me, otherwise I wouldn't be in this situation.
As for the tanks, we've got 4, 120lb tanks snaked together, and they're always kept above 50%. We get automatic delivery every 2 weeks.
Thanks again!
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Seems the gas line low pressure switch goes to the flame sensor wiring and not to the gas valve.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
You have three pressure switches (that I see), two for the inducer draft pressure and one on the LP supply, I believe the LP pressure is the one they were referring to not the two inducer draft pressure switches.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
This is the pressure switch that appears to either be defective, manual reset, or is sensing low pressure from the propane supply:
uh, well, it won't let me paste images right now, but it is the pressure switch with the violet wires
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Thanks again for all the info! So it's this contraption in the photo that's the pressure switch? With all these problems, something must have fried the system. Maybe a power surge? I use a whole house surge protector on my panel but I know that those things aren't a 100% guarantee.
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that is the part. with the gas supply to the furnace on it should measure around 0 ohms. i don't really see anything that would take those components out. even a power issue would be more likely to fry the transformer than those things unless they put the wires back wrong when they replaced the inducer fan and hooked them to 120v or something.
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you said you had a multi meter right? You can set it to continuity and as long as the sensor is measuring good pressure in the gas pipe the continuity should beep. It's hard to see in the picture if there is a circuit schematic on the side of the black microswitch but I would imagine its a normally open switch and once pressurized the contact get pushed up and closes the circuit. Do not disconnect it or unscrew it from the gas line, you can do this with just the 2 purple wires. If it doesn't beep right away maybe wiggle the black microswitch a little to see if it got knocked around a bit when they replaced the inducer, it could just be pulled out or pushed in too much. Its worth a try.
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When you do eventually figure out whether or not the switch is working or not, once you're completed with either the repair or replacement it will go in series with the flame sensor. Very similar to what folks had you try earlier when we thought it went to the gas valve but now that someone has found the conversion directions it will go in series with the purple wire behind the switch that's connected to the flame sensor as per the directions.
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Thanks! I did try earlier to test for continuity. I connected the probes to the end of the purple wires while they were connected to the pressure switch. I didn't get 0, but I got something like .01 and .05. this was with the furnace not calling for heat (not that it should matter because the wires were to connected to anything but my probes).
So you're saying that this switch is not supposed to be wired with the yellow wires on the gas valve? I see the flame sensor behind in the photo, but I'm not sure how I can connect it to that as I don't recall seeing any ports to connect them to. I can try this tomorrow morning though.
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Are there 2 terminals on the end of the gas pressure switch or just the one? if it has three terminals total they might have accidentally connected one of the wires to the normally closed instead of the normally open terminal.
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Looks like it is just a micro-switch, a V7-5F27E9 Single Pole Normally Open switch. Probably replaceable.
One vendor https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/honeywell-sensing-and-productivity-solutions/V7-5F27E9/2749045
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
Also I'm just seeing this now, sorry about that. I get overwhelmed with info sometimes! I'll look at this tomorrow and try to see if it's actually working but wiresd wrong. I'll try all of this before I order a replacement. thanks!
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This may help, I am very visual so sometimes finding videos help a little more. But yes to answer your question. You will not be putting it in series with the yellow wires. You will be doing something similar to what you tried earlier with that, except it will be going in series with the purple wire from the flame sensor in the back. Connect that female to the male lead off the switch and then the female lead will get connected onto the flame sensor.
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The video explains why it's important to have this switch operating properly and shows what happens to a propane systems flame when pressure does drop off but the safety does not cut the power to the circuit.
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" I didn't get 0, but I got something like .01 and .05. "
.01 or .05 may be good continuity in the Ohms mode, you have to know your meter. Open circuit (probes not touching each other) may be OL or another indication, probes touching will be another like 0 or or .01 or .05 or the like.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
Not sure why the factory would have you break the flame sense to lock out the furnace, but I'm not going to tell you to do something against what the manual states. (Breaking the flame sense will still let the burner light probably three times before it locks out, breaking the gas valve will not let the furnace light for those same three attempts—and you'll get the exact same code.) I suppose there could be something special about the switch or assembly that makes it unsuitable to break the gas valve circuit.
In any case, it's easy enough to test the gas pressure switch, although it'll involve taking it out of the furnace. After shutting off the gas to the furnace, remove the switch from the pipe it's installed in. I would out a plug (should be "¼ NTP" or "¼ MIPS") in the hole even if you're going to put the switch back, Just In Case. Sounds like that switch opens at 6" WC, which is 6 inches water column, literally the pressure it takes to push water 6 inches up a straw. Set your meter to resistance or continuity & clip it onto the terminals. It should show open circuit (OL or somesuch) or no continuity. Blow into the switch until you hear/feel it click and your meter should then show some small resistance (under a few ohms, possibly tenths of an ohm) or continuity, which should go away again when you stop blowing. If you want to check the settings, you can build a manifold & connect your manometer to it as well, then you can see the actual trip point.
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@PeteA thanks again! I got down there just now and I wired it in series the way you told me to, and it was very excited when wired this way a flame was produced and it started blasting propane. Unfortunately it only runs for about 5 seconds and then the flame goes out.
So it could still be a bad low pressure switch or something else?
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it is doing exactly what @ratio described if the pressure is low or it is bad or miswired.
the flame sensor circuit gives it some number of seconds to prove flame (by conducting only one way through the flame). If it doesn't sense flame rectification which it won't if the pressure switch isn't completing the circuit, it ignites for some period of time then shuts down. then it tries again some number of times.
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I figured as much! I just saw what Ratio said above. I will try to remove the switch and do the tests he suggest and I will report back ASAP! Thanks very much.
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do you have a volt meter?
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you could take out the pressure switch and use a barb fitting or tapered nozzle to connect it securely there. look at the pressure with the gas on. if that is above the setpoint of the pressure switch(it should be marked on the switch), take the switch out of circuit and run the furnace with the manometer connected and see if the pressure stays above the setpoint with the furnace firing.
maybe the reason they put it in the flame sense circuit is so that if the pressure has a transient drop for a second it doesn't shut the furnace down because i think there is a delay in the flame sense circuit.
connect the ohmmeter to it while you open and close the switch. it should be infinity with no pressure and be a couple ohms or less with pressure. does that happen?
that switch is like this. it may or may not have 2 terminals on the end. if it has 2 terminals, one is normally open and the other is normally closed. the wire could be on the wrong one
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I just followed instructions from @ratio . I removed the switch and set my multimeter to do a continuity test. It read zero when sitting on the table. Once I blew into it and heard a click, I got continuity in the switch and the multimeter beeped.
@mattmia2 my switch looks similar to yours. Photo attached. I won't find a 1/4" barbed fitting at my local hardware store, but perhaps if they have a 1/4" nipple I can grind one end to a taper on my grinder and make something that will work with my manometer. I'd like to rule everything else out first with this switch. I'm assuming the switch is working based on my results with the multimeter and blowing into it? Thanks again!
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you could connect the switch to a piece of tubing and the switch and blow in to it to see at what pressure it cuts in. it could be far out of calibration or the pressure could be low. the latter is more likely. if the pressure is low the gas valve may not open too. there may be nothing wrong with the old valve but the new valve locks out at a lower pressure.
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My manometer came with the 1/8" adapter I need, but I'm not sure where to test. Do I test where the pressure switch screwed in, or on the gas valve itself. I know there is a set screw I can adjust on the gas valve to make adjustments, just don't know how to properly test. Also do I use the + or - on my manometer? It's got kpa, kgcm, inH20, ftH20, cmH20, bar, ozin, psi, inHG, mbar and m mHg. Here's a pic.
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