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Leaking new vents?

Hi there,

Recently I replaced all the vents in the steam system I have in a house I bought two years ago, which had mostly Hoffmann #40s all across, in various states of rustiness.

I did some math to estimate radiator and riser volumes and ended up buying some Maid O' Mist #5 for the smaller radiators, and some #6 and a #c for a really large one. Due to the larger sizes, the overall system should be venting more quickly than before.

I also added 3 main vents (MOM #1) at the end of the main branches, which never existed before, so I'm sure that now the radiator vents are only venting the risers and radiators.

Two of the new vents in my bedroom have been unusually noisy, creaking and hissing. They aren't visibly spitting but after a few weeks I can see some dried water stains around the orifice. Holding up a mirror against the vents shows a very clear haze that turns into droplets within seconds.

So I thought I got a dud, and rotated the vents from other radiators (good thing about the MoM is that you can switch the orifices). Again I hear the same hissing and see the same hazing on the mirror.

Have I just had very bad luck? Or is a little bit of steam expected to leak? Or could I have a problem elsewhere?

Thanks.

gm

Comments

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,918

    what is your pressure set at?

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    Hap_Hazzard
  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43

    I have a vaporstat set at 4oz cut in, 12oz cut out.

  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43

    I have to say that 1/3 of the radiators are shut off at the moment since some rooms are not occupied.

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,918

    Try opening them and report what happens.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    Waher
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,309

    At those pressures I wouldn't expect any hissing, and even less so at the start of a call for heat when the radiators are still getting heated by the steam. Closing off 1/3 of your radiators, though, will make your boiler even more oversized than it already likely is and that's not advisable.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Wahergattu_marrudu
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,638
    edited January 23

    Is the boiler piped properly and producing dry steam? Bi-metal type vents don't handle water as well as others, and often collect and retain droplets, fail to reach closing temperature causing spitting sounds when met with wet steam (or water).

    You might try experimenting with a quality sylphon bellows - type vent on a troublesome radiator and see if it's quieter. You'll find that each vent manufacturer's product behaves differently on different systems; some more forgiving of varying steam characteristics.

    gattu_marruduRobert_H
  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43
    edited January 24

    The near boiler piping is not ideal, according to some comments in another thread, but it's well insulated. The top of the glass gauge looks clear when the boiler is making steam. How would I check if I have wet steam?

  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43

    I have opened all other radiators and so far the bedroom vents sound quieter. Of course, that comes at the cost of wasting heat on unoccupied rooms.

    I'll try leaving the other radiators open all night and see if the change is consistent (they usually wake me up).

  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43

    OK, the vents have been much quieter for a while now, but they are still leaking some steam and making a low gurgling noise, even a new Hoffman #40 that I have on a smaller radiator.

    If I have wet steam, according to @Long Beach Ed :

    Is the boiler piped properly and producing dry steam? Bi-metal type vents don't handle water as well as others, and often collect and retain droplets, fail to reach closing temperature causing spitting sounds when met with wet steam (or water).

    I'd be more concerned about having inefficient heat transfer than the vent noise at that point.

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,724

    the rooms that you don’t want to eat just put a blanket over the radiator. That will slow down the heat output

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,309

    Blanket or shutting them off it still oversizes the boiler.

    Don't worry about efficiency. The BTUs are going into your house, there's no other place for them to go

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Waher
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,724

    blankets still leave the vents in play.

  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43

    @pecmsg let me understand the dynamics of this. I open all the rads and put a blanket on some of them. The covered ones get filled with steam but because their dissipation is much slower, the steam hangs in there for longer, while ones in rooms that I want to heat up dissipate more quickly. The steam in the uncovered ones quickly collapses into condensate and lets more steam in, until the next up cycle.

    That way BTUs are the same but they are directed to the places I want. Correct?

  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,985

    set for 4 - 12 oz, are you confirming with a low pressure gage? and the pigtail is clear all back to the boiler?

    known to beat dead horses
  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43

    I don't have a low-pressure gauge, but I made sure I cleaned the pigtail when I installed the vaporstat 3-4 months ago.

    I just timed the boiler cycles, and it goes at an average of 2 minutes on, 1 minute off with all radiators open. Definitely oversized, but I don't see a relation with the leaking steam. All radiators get nice and hot even at the current 4÷12 oz/sq. in setting.

  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43
    edited January 25

    I picked up Dan Holohan's book from the shelf and read more about vents' drop-away pressure. That is not in the Jacobus spec sheet, but I wonder what happens if my boiler cut-out (0.75 psi in my case) is set below the drop-away pressure.

    Do the vents need some minimum pressure to stay closed in the up cycle, and could it be that they leak if they don't have that? They do seem to vent intermittently. Maybe the steam is shutting them temporarily but they release shortly after for lack of pressure?

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,638
    edited January 25

    I see several problems here. You don't need any "minimum pressure" to close vents. They operate strictly on temperature.

    Your boiler is cycling on and off rapidly on pressure nearly all the time. If the radiators are full of steam to their ends, your boiler is terribly oversized.

    Between the atrocious piping of the boiler and its oversizing, you are dealing with a very high steam velocity into the radiators. This is exacerbated by using very fast (large) vents. This negates condensate drainage and causes wet steam to reach the vents. This wet steam makes the venting noisy. Wet steam also cools the vent's bi-metal element preventing it from closing tightly.

    Putting a slower vent on the larger radiator along with increasing main venting may help quiet your system. Substituting a bi-metal vent (MoM or Gorton) with a sylphon vent (Hoffman or Vent-rite) could possibily help too. They tend to close at lower temperatures and/or not open as quickly.

    I'm afraid, though, that such oversizing and mis-piping this boiler will have these symptoms.

    gattu_marruduethicalpaul
  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43
    edited January 25

    Thanks @Long Beach Ed . I have a 5-section Utica PEG-150.

    Rough calculations of the total radiating area for the house (2-story single family) based on Dan's book should be around 262 sq.ft. plus piping. With a pick-up factor of 1.33 (insulated pipes) it would give me a total radiating area of 349.

    It looks like the PEG-150 is rated for 391 sq.ft (AHRI rating) - is that what I should look at? Including or excluding pick up (it says net, so I imagine that would be excluding the piping)?

    I'm looking at all of this to know how grossly oversized the boiler is. Replacing it would be a very expensive job and I'd like to know how much I would get out of that change.

  • dabrakeman
    dabrakeman Member Posts: 723

    Yes your boiler is rated for 391sqft but that is to be compared directly to your standing radiation, not the radiators + piping. The boiler rating already accounts for the piping estimate. So you are almost 50% oversized with all your radiators open. In my opinion you would be better off with slowing some of the radiators down getting a little more length out of a cycle to give the house a chance to heat up before all the radiators are filled and you start cycling on pressure.

    gattu_marruduethicalpaul
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,638
    edited January 25

    As the brakeman said above, your improperly piped boiler is 50% over sized. And you also have 1/3 of the radiators shut off, which makes the boiler nearly 100% over sized.

    That's why you have short cycling and velocity noise.

    ethicalpaulWaher
  • Dan_NJ
    Dan_NJ Member Posts: 267

    If you are really that oversized maybe think about adding a timer that will pause the firing during the call for heat. My system was oversized by ~40%, but it was an older home with older windows that probably needed all of the pickup factor, plus it had a Cycleguard low water cutoff that would pause firing during a cycle. That Cycleguard delay mitigated the short cycling such that it was only really noticeable on the coldest days/during prolonged cold snaps. You could add a control that does the same thing and dial it in more precisely. I also considered converting to the next smaller sized burner which would have helped alot but I'm out of that house now and someone is probably tearing the steam out anyway 😪

  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43

    I do have a Cycleguard LWCO, but it doesn't look like the model that allows a programmable delay. I'll look into my options while I look into slower vents that can withstand wet steam.

    Thanks all for your very helpful tips.

  • Dan_NJ
    Dan_NJ Member Posts: 267

    My oversize situation was not too severe. Check out this thread for some suggestions:

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,309

    In your oversized boiler situation which @Long Beach Ed has described very well, I would look for a tech who would consider capping off one or two of your burners then doing a combustion check to see if those numbers were still OK.

    Another possibility is that most manufacturers allow a reduction in gas pressure from the norm of 3.5 inches of water column, down to 3.0, and that will make difference too, but not as much as capping off a burner or two.

    These boilers are not rocket science, they are an open flame under a cast iron pot, but work with a tech who knows what he's doing.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43

    @ethicalpaul that sounds like a good suggestion. I really don't want to replace a boiler that's working fine (especially after replacing several parts) and I'll need a pro to look at the whole system for other issues, possibly do the burner capping, and estimate a re-piping.

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,638

    Not to muddy the waters, so to speak, but capping off burners — lowering the firing rate — may greatly increase the the boiler firing time before producing steam. That time increase varies depending on the water temperature. When cold, a boiler will require a larger increase in time while one that is cycling would be less affected. So the results have to be carefully monitored and assessed observing system operation vs. fuel consumption and weather conditions. Careful analysis can find the best balance.

    An underfired boiler runs a risk of simmering a long time before steaming, adding to the fuel bill.

    Of course as Paul mentions, none of this should be done without the proper combustion analysis.

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,309

    That could potentially be a concern, but it can't be too big a deal…most manufacturers do the same thing (remove a burner) when they go from one size of x sections down to the lower size of x sections.

    For example, my boiler the 63-03L is just a 63-03 with one less burner

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,871

    Is it working, or is it perched atop a clogged pigtail? With a third of your radiators shut off I'd expect the boiler to be cycling like mad on pressure. Is it?

    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43
    edited January 27

    However to @Long Beach Ed's point, that leaves the same amount of metal to heat up. My Utica has 4 burners for 5 sections, capping one would reduce output by 1/4.

  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43

    It is, even with all rads open: 1m off, 2m on. The pigtail is clean.

    One of the reasons for raising venting capacity was my suspicion that not enough venting was creating pressure too quickly.

    At any rate, as I mentioned, I contacted a steam specialist in my area to look at the whole thing.

    How long should one expect the cycles to be in a system this size?

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,638

    So true, and I tried to word my post not to infer that your suggestion isn't a good one. I just wanted to mention that there are considerations that must be, eh, considered. When manufacturers market a boiler with different burner configurations they have done that considering for you and are confident that the option is worthy of their "good name".

    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,309

    Yep, that's the idea!

    You can certainly time from burner-on-time to steam-production-time with the current burners (at a reasonable starting temperature), then time it again with a burner capped

    (Don't tell anyone but when I want to experiment with this, I use a small piece of aluminum tape over the burner orifice).

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43

    Just for the kicks, while waiting for the steam expert's advice, I experimented with @ethicalpaul 's foil tape. The boiler is no longer short-cycling. In fact, it runs all the way until the thermostat stops it. The vaporstat, which is an older mercury "teeter-totter" model that starts rattling before it shuts down, never moves.

    This way it takes about 40 minutes for a 20 sqf, 9-section radiator to completely heat up. I am not sure if that's normal, but it feels like a long time.

    ethicalpaul
  • gattu_marrudu
    gattu_marrudu Member Posts: 43

    Forgot to mention, the pipes between the header and the main get steam-hot after about 2 minutes.

    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,309
    edited January 28

    the rate of a given radiator filling has a lot of variables but that sounds reasonable

    Forgot to mention, the pipes between the header and the main get steam-hot after about 2 minutes.

    And this can vary a lot depending on how much time has passed since the last boil, but in the winter it is probably boiling about every hour anyway so will never take long to start making steam.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    dabrakemangattu_marrudu