Return changes elevation and other oddities.
Some interesting choices were made I think. When this ceiling was sheet rocked for fire code, someone deleted all the pipe hangers 🙄 so we've got a nice droop in the main. This may explain why the outlet of this trap is now below the "dry" height of the return and so permanently submerged.
Just to confirm; without a big juicy air vent after that trap, I should be air locked, correct? The condensate should eventually find its own level and drain but I'm not getting air through there.
There are currently only 2 (quite large) rads above this, one's trap is definitely failed wide open, the other likely so and the entire drip, strainer and inverted bucket almost certainly jammed solid with sludge. The rad with the verified open trap heats well and I'm guessing it's currently venting the main on startup.
However, once the rad traps are fixed and any slurry cleaned out of the assembly in the picture, I should be stuck with no way to vent the main, right?
Obviously, I need to raise and support the piping but I'm wondering about the next step. My instinct is to lose the 2"x1/2" Tee at the top of the drip (that 1/2" isn't doing anything anyway), raise everything up and put in a small F&T (I've got a few old Dunham 30-2As that I can refurb) in place of the inverted bucket.... Or can I just put a Gorton #2 at the outlet of the existing trap and call it a day?
Comments
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the hangers were removed so just replace them.
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Yes, I'll replace the hangers but I'll still be left with end-of-line trap perpetually full of water. How is it going to vent the main?
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Come off the capped 3/4 on the top for the trap to the dry return, drop the loop with the bucket trap to make a loop seal back up to the dry return . Pitch the lower trap.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
This might work? Save you some trouble?
Check the spec. measurements for the size you will need and to see how it will fit.
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I presume the dry return is vented somewhere? Like near the boiler?
More or less as @delcrossv suggested. Use that 3/4 inch stub, right angle to inlet of standard radiator steam trap, come out of the bottom outlet of that and down to the level of the dry return without that existing trap and drop. From somewhere convenient before that existing trap, go all the way down to the floor, come back up for your loop seal and tie into the dry return with the line from the nice new radiator trap.
Use the existing trap for a doorstop.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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Not 100% sure I follow. I see the capped 3/4. Are you saying to vent though that with a thermostatic into the return and replace the section with the valve, strainer and trap with plain pipe?
Or why not just stick a big vent where that cap is and do the same thing? (if I'm following you).
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Yes. Drop the plain pipe section to the floor so you have adequate B dimension. You're making a water seal with the condensate. Air vents off the top through the trap, condensate drains through the loop seal . Both connected to the dry return. When you pipe it, make sure you don't flood the trap line.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
I'm a little foggy on b dimension but this return drops into a pumped return tank. Would I still need the loop to drop all the way to the floor? Could I simply put a large vent or 2 where that capped 3/4" is or do I really need to loop back through a trap? I'm also not sure what you mean about flooding the trap line. Sorry about all the follow up's.
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Yes, all the returns in the system go to vented condensate return tanks then to a boiler feed tank. This line drops into a tank about 5' off the floor. My knowledge of A and B dimensions is pretty vague and I guess I don't really understand why the loop has to go so low. My concern is about dropping the loop seal all the way to the floor as this is a rented storage area and it might be in the way and/or be at risk of being damaged. It also could interfere with a door to the right of the photo.
I like this whole approach but I feel like it might be easier for me to shorten up the drip by raising the Tee, either in line with the existing height of the return, or a little higher and swap the bucket for an F&T. Is there any reason the loop seal and thermostatic trap route is preferable?
Thanks
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You're making it a good deal harder than you need it to be. The crossover trap I suggested takes care of the venting. The loop seal takes care of the condensate.
Now that loop seal has to be proportioned to the expected maximum steam pressure, or steam in the main will happily blow through it and get into the return. This you do not want.
Now you could also go the F&T route. A lot more maintenance and expense, but as you please. Be sure to use a small enough one — the usual error with an F&T is to make it too big. There isn't all that much condensate. Note that an F&T is NOT an adequate substitute for a main vent, so you will need to put a main vent at the end of that main if you choose to go that route.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Just put the air vent :
On the 3/4" capped nipple
or
on the 1/2" pipe close to the 2 x 1/2 tee. Not the tee with the trap. The one coming out of the back of the riser with the union on it. Put the vent as close to the riser as you can.
Your probably going to find out that the air is going through the trap with the condensate anyhow. Traps let air and water through and stop when steam hits them. Your probably overthinking this. You probably have a 4" rise coming out of the trap. The trap will lift the water to the return if your steam pressure is1/4lb or more.
Its not the best but it will work
Maybe when you rehang the pipe the trap will go straight in
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You want the trap line to just pass air, so keep it high.
You don't want the pressure in the main to push the water out of the loop seal and send steam into the dry return. So allow not less than 28" of drop for each psi of boiler pressure. Taking the loop down to the floor provides leeway in case boiler pressure is abnormally high.
Where the dry return drains isn't material here.
If you can arrange for a F&T at the right height to drain into the dry return, you can always do that. Inlet low on the main, outlet in line with the dry return..
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Got it. P-trol is set to 3psi now but about every trap in the building dates from the Coolidge administration and have never been touched. I've never seen meaningful pressure build without the king valve shut. Once we're not equalizing our pressure by letting it flow freely into the returns, I'm not sure where it'll end up but at 28" per pound, I'm not sure I've got the height. Ideally, I want to see it running on as little pressure as possible but the boiler is probably oversized etc. It's such a shame. Owner of the property is 90 years old and has just sunk ~$130k into new boiler, chimney liner, feed tank and nbp. Convincing him to replace 50+ trap elements is... Challenging.
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Well, not all the traps are necessarily bad….
But 3psi is higher than it needs to be. In any event, a properly located and drained F&T will work just fine.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
May be the most inexpensive way to go, just some pipe and a radiator trap. The existing valve, the condensate loop and the trap could all be closer the the wall. There could be a clean out valve at the floor.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System
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Agreed if he can get the pressure down to maintain the loop seal. At 3psi (too high) he'd need 7 1/2 feet between the dry return and the floor
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
That was exactly what I was suggesting, @109A_5
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England2 -
Not all but the great majority. I built a little test rig and maybe 1 in 10 elements closes. Even if they do, they're mostly 100 year old Dunham Bush 1Bs with integrated seats that are too pitted to form a seal anymore. It's a real **** show.
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Nuts. Gotta bite the bullet on the traps then.
You've got enough you should get a volume discount.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
I'd do this for sure but I really can't drop that loop to the floor. I know it looks like a dungeon but It's rented storage space and it just won't fly.
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Ultimately I'm trying to identify what work will have the greatest impact on fuel burn and heat output for the least upfront cost. The 90 year old owner of the property has just had to spring for a new boiler and near boiler piping, chimney liner, feed tank etc. He's horrified by how much he's spent already, knows as much about his heating system as my dog knows about bitcoin and justifying each additional dollar is tricky.
We're in St. John's Newfoundland, 5 miles from the most easterly point in north America. There's nobody on this little island that knows anything about steam heating.
The struggle is real folks and I appreciate all the advice.
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Yes, going off your description I thought I would try to illustrate it for others.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
What is so precious about maybe 6 square inches of floor space next to a wall or in the corner to make the heating system work correctly. Both pipes could be against the wall in the corner and put a elbow behind the existing valve to tuck it in closer to the wall, I think it would be lot better all the way around. If you insulated that wall area you would loose more space. I would think a low hanging inverted bucket trap would be more of a liability. Apparently the rental agreement contract is poorly written, some things should have priority.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
I agree with you. It's just not my call. I don't rent the space. Your suggestion is the best option but it's been rejected by the man who signs the cheques. As Dan might say 'it's not engineering, it's sociology'. And there's no contract. This is one very very old man renting space to another very very old man in a very very old building. It's paid with a personal cheque, written in a ledger and deposited in person. It's forever 1955 here. I'm doing the best I can. I really appreciate the help though.
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Just plumb in an F&T trap then and call it a day. Will the owner spring for that? More $$$ than a radiator trap and some pipe. But yeah, its sociology.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Well in 1955 they may have kept the system in good order, however I get what your saying.
Maybe the simple answer (I think it was previously mentioned) is to put a vent here a Big Mouth or a Gorton #2 let the inverted bucket trap pass the condensate. It should not pass much steam if it is working correctly. I'd support the pipes correctly first so you know how much room you will have for a new vent.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
I happen to have a few small 3/4" F&Ts that are in great shape but for failed thermostatics. A Tunstall capsule and some gasket material and we're good. I really appreciate all the guidance.
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The problem with just an F&T is you have to overcome this dimension (red arrows) with pressure before you are venting any air. You could connect it in higher up to the input of the F&T like at the at union above the valve in the picture. Or bring that capped off nipple down to the input of the F&T and Tee it in with the condensate path from the valve. I would raise the F&T up to the return height.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System1 -
Correct. The OUTLET of the F&T has to be in line with the dry return. @Gateacre has some piping to redo.
What's the 1/2" line with the union going away in the picture go to? Radiator return?
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
See the cock eyed 1 1/4" radiator valve right before the drip? It runs back to a dead riser going to the 3rd floor. The 1/2" with the union joins that riser some reason 🤔. I can ditch the 2x1/2 Tee and the nipple below it, move everything else up to the close nipple and give myself enough height for the F&T to discharge into the return.
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Sounds good. Make sure you maintain the mud leg and a strainer before the F&T.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
Hey Ed. I didn't see your comment. It's good to know that I can tolerate some variation in height on the return without everything coming to a stop. There's an art gallery in another part of the building where this is an issue but that's another post. Anytime anyone says that I'm overthinking, they're correct 😜 - welcome to ADHD!
Thanks for all your help.
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