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Need more consistent domestic hot water

I currently have a WM SGO-3 oil fired steamer with a tankless hot water coil, installed in 2007.
The coil is rated at 5GPM and is plumbed to a Honeywell mixing valve to regulate domestic hot to a max of 120F.

I have thermometers plumbed in line with the direct hot water out of the coil as well as the domestic hot feed to the home.
At this point, even with the boiler firing, it can’t maintain 120F from the direct out of the coil. I have dropped the flow rate from my shower to less than 2GPM, and it still has trouble maintaining temp.

Some years ago, I purchased a new tankless coil (same spec and mfg) for the boiler which is still sitting in a box, along with a new mixing valve, as the old one is seized internally.
Since I never mess with the boiler during the winter months, my thoughts were to replace the coil and rework the control setup for the domestic hot come springtime.

The existing coil could be covered in sludge or have internal mineral buildup preventing heat transfer, or could have been improperly installed by the knuckleheads that installed the boiler before I knew about steam (Thank you Dan Hollihan) so that would be the first thing to do.

I was considering adding a flow switch to the cold water input and an aquastat to the hot water output, wired in series. This would fire the boiler only when the flow was detected and the temp was below the setpoint. It would shutdown the boiler if either one was satisfied.

Does this make sense to anyone, or am I overthinking this?

Comments

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,640

    Hi, Thinking is good🤔 Have you considered adding an indirect tank? It would give you more consistent temperatures.
    Yours, Larry

    GGrossEdTheHeaterManmattmia2SuperTech
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,015
    edited January 15

    Separate your domestic hot water from your heating system and let your boiler sleep during the summer.

    A boiler is a horrible way to make domestic hot water. I think someone about 100 years ago thought "hey I have all this heat, why not use it to heat my domestic hot water?" and then no one ever thought since then if it was a good idea.

    Buy an electric water heater (traditional or heat pump as you wish) and enjoy the simple life.

    An indirect tank would be better than a tankless, but the cost and complexity of that is something that only a plumber with a boat payment due could love. $$$ tank, $$$ fittings, circulators, and $$$ installation, $$$ running your boiler all summer to heat a few gallons of water per day.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Larry Weingartenhot_rodGGrossbjohnhy
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,880
    edited January 15

    Could be the mixing valve.

    That being said a tankless coil is only good for 2 people or so if you have more than that I would look at different options.

    I am not thrilled with an indirect tank on a steamer. The cost of the indirect and a bronze pump will cost $$$.

    If you change the mix valve and coil and are still dissatisfied I would look at a 40-50 gallon electric. You could use the tankless to preheat the electric when the boiler is on for heat.

    Unless gas is available.

    Also some are not aware of this but tankless coils only put out their rated capacity with 200 deg boiler water and you don't want to go that high

    What water temp are you running for DHW in the boiler.

    I see no purpose to your flow switch idea as the low limit and the flow switch would have to call for the boiler to run.

    What you could do if you had a spare tapping in the boiler and put an additional low limit control in that tapping set for a higher temp say 190. You could wire that control in series with the flow switch and the to the boiler.

    So when the flow switch calls it puts the new LL in the circuit to the boiler at a higher temp but only while the flow switch is calling.

    But we are beating a dead horse. I would go electric if the new tankless doesn't work.

    ethicalpaul
  • Jon Held_2
    Jon Held_2 Member Posts: 26

    Thank you all for the thoughts and comments.

    I have NG available, it's just not plumbed to that side of the house. Not a big deal.

    I'm not liking the idea of a standard hot water heater, as I've been down that road in my old house and still reminded of the flood.

    I was looking into a Bradford-White on demand NG fired unit, but I have no experience with these types of devices. The specs look good along with the warrantee, and the cost isn't too terrible.

    Has anyone had real world experience with these units?

  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,378

    If you like the way your current tankless works you will like a standalone tankless. They need to be cleaned at least once a year, multiple times if your water is real bad. Still flow limited, and will give the same symptoms your current setup does when they start to scale up.

  • Jon Held_2
    Jon Held_2 Member Posts: 26

    Well, I maintain my boiler every fall, so periodic maintenance doesn't bother me. I'll have to read up on the maintenance procedures for the various units out there. B-W seems to be a decent unit. Are there better/more reliable units on the market?

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,015
    edited January 16

    Sounds great!! Can't maintain temp, requires lots of maintenance, low flow, and prone to scale! Who wouldn't want that?

    @Jon Held_2 I think your fear of standalone water heaters is being too heavily biased by one bad event. If you put one in you won't even have to think about it for 10 years, how is that not attractive?

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    Larry WeingartenLRCCBJ
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,378

    Look at the models that come with 15 year warranty, they are usually more expensive but generally have some way to mitigate scaling. I think BW has one and I know the AO smith family of brands released one. I don't know as much about the BW one, the AO model has a water tube heat exchanger like you might find in a condensing boiler which I like. If your current system does not have a recirc pump and you like how it works (when its working anyway!) then I would go for a model without a pump in it, one less part that can break.

    Sizing for 5 GPM will generally mean you need a 199,000 BTU/hr model (depends on groundwater temp, and desired supply temp), so you will need to take into account sizing the gas for this unit, don't undersize it.

    https://forthepro.bradfordwhite.com/our-products/usa-residential-tankless-gas/infiniti-k-series-tankless-condensing-gas-water-heater-indoor/

    https://www.americanwaterheater.com/residential/tankless/mthr-199x3/

  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,378

    Paul I think you meant that directed elsewhere. I dislike tankless water heaters and am a tank fan 😁

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,015
    edited January 16

    Sorry about that, I apologize for the confusion. I did quote your post to reference the information that you listed there but I was talking to @Jon Held_2 (I edited the post just now to improve clarity)

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,325

    From what you are saying, and asking, "Needing more consistent hot water" . It can help to know how many folks you would like the hot water to accommodate? Your current heating of hot water coil isn't doing what you want.

    I would size a stand alone water heater (Conventional, hybrid, condensing.) to help with the needs of your home.Sized to the amount of people using the hot water. At this point in time you do not have that. Steam boilers are great but are not always a good option when heating a domestic hot water coil.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,850

    the key to combi or tankless performance is jeeping the HX descaled. Using the service valves make this an easy task

    Its the quality and amount of water that leads to scaling and performance issues. Don’t blame that on the equipment

    Phosphate dosers are used in Europe to help eliminate some scaling problems. Various treatment options for hard water are available .

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    delcrossv
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,015

    Its the quality and amount of water that leads to scaling and performance issues. Don’t blame that on the equipment

    I don't blame the equipment, but I'd never buy equipment that required all that work and expense when there is other equipment that doesn't.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Jon Held_2
    Jon Held_2 Member Posts: 26

    Well, we are about to be empty nesters. Both kids have moved/about to move out, so it's just myself and my wife in about another month.

    Right now I'm just looking into options if the replacement parts I have in boxes don't work for our needs.

    There seems to be some blowback on NG tankless units in favor of a conventional tank, either electric or NG. Again, I have no experience with the tankless on-demand units. They look pretty good on paper to me.

    I suppose I'll have to wait and see when the weather breaks around here (Jersey) and the parts get replaced.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,364
    edited January 16

    Get a 50 gallon tank heater and put a pan under it piped to a drain or outside.

    The pan is required in many areas under code now anyway. That solves your concern and gets you the hot water you want.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    ethicalpaul
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,850

    one mans opinion. That’s the beauty of HH, real life experiences from a variety of posters.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Jon Held_2
    Jon Held_2 Member Posts: 26

    Are you saying that a standard tank system doesn't require maintenance? I'm reading that the new NG units require yearly cleanings as well. Is that incorrect?

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 7,015
    edited January 16

    I'm saying that millions of tank water heaters get installed and see zero maintenance their whole lives. Some of them get some maintenance like draining out some water, or replacing the anode, but there is no hard evidence that I've seen that it even affects the life.

    Please link to the reading about NG tank units needing yearly cleanings…I'm not sure what that means and I'm curious now.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,364

    I changed the anode rod in my previous heater once and that's all I ever did to it in 9 years and we use a ton of hot water.

    My current NG heater I've done absolutely nothing to so far, it's about 3 years old.

    I'm not a pro.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,640

    Hi, Tank type heaters that are glass-lined want to have the anode changed every two to five years and the relief valve should be checked yearly. Flushing out sediment is nice, but usually not too important.

    Yours, Larry

    LRCCBJ
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,586
    edited 4:39AM

    Others comments aside, after going through 2 tanked water heaters in too short a time, one with the associated flood, I installed a Rheem branded (Rinnai) tankless heater. Has kept up with the water demands of 4 teenage girls plus the rest of us without issue. 4gpm for as long as you want it.

    Annual maintenance is overblown. A cheap pump, a 5 gallon bucket and some vinegar is all that's required. Do get the service valve kit. Makes it a snap.

    The only repair I've had to do was clean the proving electrodes once in 12 years.

    Install was straightforward, did it in half a day. I think getting the copper HX rather than the stainless one was a good call with our water.

    Happy camper, I'll never go back to a tank heater.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,880

    I have never heard of anyone with a tankless water heater that was happy

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,466

    I've only seen one Bradford White tankless, and now it's a Navien. IDK the model but it had a self adjusting gas valve. It was 2 years old when I first saw it. This particular model was converted to LPG and kept getting a code for incorrect fuel. You could put it through a setup that took like 18 minutes of self checks and it would run. After a phone call with BW Tech Support to verify all was correct, the board was replaced under warranty. I can't remember the specifics, if anything else was replaced, but the issue continued. Spot on combustion numbers when it ran, but it still lockout on the fuel code again and again. BW recommended another board, so a Navi went in and all is good. Maybe it was just that one heater. IDK.

    Bradford White does however manufacture decent stand alone atmospheric water heaters. There's companies that make all sorts of things to alert you if theres a leak and can even automatically shut off the water supply. Technology is cool… if you don't count the beginning of my post.

    If the oil tank is buried or old, have you thought about converting the boiler to a gas power burner? What's hooked up to Nat gas now? What size is the meter?

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,586
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,176

    That sounds more like an issue with support not knowing how the product works or brining in an engineer when then needed it than an issue with technology or the product.(or having access to the engineer because they bought it from someone else and put their name on it.)

    hot_rod
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,364

    My boss loves his tankless and has been using them for a long time.

    I think his current one is a Takagi from about 6 years ago.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    delcrossv
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,176

    The ones that keep a little tank of hot water are probably ok if you have a large enough gas supply or live somewhere with relatively warm municipal water.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,364

    He has a family of 5 and most of them love long hot showers and he's on a well.

    His water is good and cold in the winter like right now and he's never complained about not having plenty of hot water. I also think he runs it at 140F.

    This is the exact one he's using

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Takagi-T-K4-IN-NG-TK-4-IN-Takagi-Tankless-Indoor-Water-Heater-Natural-Gas

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    delcrossv
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,176
    edited 10:18PM

    At 190,000 btu/hr that is also most of the capacity of a standard 250 ft^3/hr gas meter depending on how you design for pressure drop.