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HVAC Decisions for old house

oldiron
oldiron Member Posts: 3

Hi All, this is my first post to HeatingHelp.com!! Just bought a house built in the 1890's and need some HVAC guidance. Original steam heating was working until last year when the prior owner decided to install mini splits on floors 1 + 2 of the 3 story house (house is ~2800sq Ft - spread evenly across 3 floors). I've been researching the house, and a lot of options. Many details below.

House: House is structural brick with a mix of modern 2 pane sealed windows and original windows with storms.

Original steam heat: Originally, steam was supplied via a district steam plant (which closed in the 1970's). Steam heat system system utilizes what seems to be a fairly unique variant of indirect steam heating that I've not seen elsewhere in literature. In the basement, there are 6 boxes attached to the ceiling, which encapsulate what look to be American Radiator Excelsior radiators. A wooden flue extends from bottom of the box to about 1 foot off the floor - this is the part of the system that seems unique, most literature (such as American Radiator's 1910 pub "The Ideal Fitter" - see pg 125) show indirects bringing in fresh air from outside. Apart from original windows in the basement, I can find no air outlets to the outside. 1st floor has 3x 14x18" vents, 2nd floor: 4x 12x16" vents, 3rd floor 4x 12x14" vents. The door to the basement is solid, and doesn't have any huge gaps around the frame, so it's a bit unclear to me how air actually circulates in the house. Excelsior radiators are piped with supply and return steam pipes. Until last year a Crown BS1276ENPZZPSU, installed in just 2013 supplied all heat for the building. The boiler has thoroughly rusted out and leaks water when filled and completely cold. There are 3 small single piped radiators (2 bathrooms, 1 accessory room) in addition to the indirect radiators.

Mini splits: A Mitsubishi MXZ-SM48NAMHZ-U1 powers ductless wall mount units on floors 1 + 2, with 36k BTU on floor 1 and 24k BTU on floor 2. Floor 2 has stayed relatively comfortable, but Floor 1 struggles to heat sufficiently for the Philadelphia area. There is a relatively large, open antique staircase that seems to allow a lot of heat to rise. 1st floor sits above a currently unheated, unfinished basement, and hardwood floors are uncomfortably cold.

In an ideal world, I'd like even heating to all 3x floors, some minimum level of heat to the accessory room so pipes don't freeze, and it would be nice if basement was slightly heated or at least floors on 1st floor weren't uncomfortably cold. I suspect a new steam boiler would probably help me do that, but am curious if some other options might be more optimal.

A couple things going against steam:

Current boiler placement leave a long (let's say ~20ft) exhaust pipe running across the basement (see photos). Home inspector and HVAC rep I paid to take a look at boiler flagged this as dangerous (CO), but also likely a cause or contributor to the boiler's <10 year demise due to improper burning. It might be possible to move the furnace, but a furnace of the same size is pretty large and the gas meter is in the vicinity of the chimney (photos). I will probably need to replace my hot water heater in next 1-2 years as well.

I have some doubts as to the sizing of the radiators to the furnace, but a main issue is I only have access to the inside of 2x of 6 boxes, and the condition of some of the boxes is a bit rickety, while also not necessarily being tightly sealed for the flue draft. I (or more likely a HVAC professional) can probably ballpark EDR calcs for the Excelsiors based on 12sq feet of heating surface per section and size of boxes, but didn't know if there were any other calcs or considerations for indirect style heating. I've not run into many people in the Philly area who have seen or are familiar with this style of heating (please post any recs in the area if you know someone).

So beyond putting in a new steam furnace, what else am I thinking?

One idea I see again and again is conversion from steam → hot water. A couple advantages in my mind: I could go with a high efficiency combo boiler that seems to be much more common these days, and has simpler venting requirements (can just vent directly outside). I likely get better efficiency (higher efficiency of unit itself, but also because water boiler is sized to heat load on house, not radiators - output of current boiler is a massive 227k BTUs!!), a more modern, commonly used piece of hardware, and much better CO safety than the current long piece of piping. I realize there are potentially many pitfalls to this approach that I am continuing to research, among them: putting higher pressure thru +120yr old pipes / radiators, and cost of swapping steam radiator air valves for water compatible ones. Oh, and also consideration for lowered heat output of radiators using water (but I could potentially assist with mini splits if heat output is too limited).

Another idea I had was a hybrid idea: The company that originally installed the floor 1 + 2 mini splits had a proposal for 3rd floor that was a ducted Mitsubishi heat pump installation. To a degree this installer may have slightly knuckleheaded the install, but I think it was more so the prior owner's purchasing choices, and the fact that she only lived in a portion of the house (she only wanted to pay for section she lived in). There are 4 rooms + bathroom on 3rd floor, so it's a bit costly to install a wall mounted unit for each room, hence ducted. This would cover heat + cooling for floor 3, but leave 1st floor, basement and accessory room still uncomfortably cold. Because there are open joists in the basement, it seems like it might be relatively easy to install radiant floor heating to the underside of 1st floor, to supplement or replace 1st floor mini split heat.

I'm a brand new homeowner who professionally has very high technical aptitude, but I've never read up on HVAC or Steam stuff until the past couple weeks. Am I knuckleheading this? Any advice, comments or wisdom greatly appreciated. Bonus points for anyone who can identify the ornate radiator in my last photo that seems to delight everyone who visits my house.

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,190

    That was a beautiful heating system, if not wildly efficient. The flues to near floor level in the basement are unusual, but not unique. The recirculation is from the upper floors down eventually to the basement, then back up through the flues and the radiators to the main floor.

    Now… what to do next. In the Philadelphia area, both mini-splits and ducted heat pumps are a reasonable way to heat a house, so they can be included in the thinking.

    My own preference would be a new steam boiler and work to get the original steam working as was intended — but keep in mind that my bias is towards restoration, not renovation. A good installer could figure out how to manage placing the boiler and managing the breaching so it wasn't a problem.

    My second choice would be to evaluate —thoroughly — the actual design day heating requirement of the house, room by room, and go with the heat pumps. The existing mini-splits may or may not be adequate; you can judge that, since you are there. The third floor could, as you suggest, be ducted. If you were to do that, I would close off those underfloor radiators, though I might not remove them.

    The one option I wouldn't even think about is converting to hot water heat. That is a switch which rarely works well.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • oldiron
    oldiron Member Posts: 3

    Thanks Jamie, I'm about to order a historical designation plaque for the house, so restoration is definitely something we're interested in, even if we don't necessarily have budget to pursue immediately in the upcoming year. I'd love to research those basement flues more, is there a name or keyword for this style? Also, I'm assuming wildly inefficient, not efficient?

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,503

    Inefficiencies happen in the boiler getting the heat from the fuel into the steam, not in the steam getting the heat into the house. As long as those indirects are recirculating house air, I don't think they'd be that bad.

    The inefficient systems used outside air as the intake. "One and done".

    So no, not "wildly inefficient".

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    Ironman
  • Grallert
    Grallert Member Posts: 829

    With that kind of convection heating I would shy away from converting to water though I am the odd man out as I am a big fan of some steam to water conversions. That said with considering the envelope and it's potential weaknesses that I assume you will be resolving I would go with a new steam boiler properly located and installed. What @Jamie Hall said. Also you'll really need to figure out what killed the first boiler. I love that small free standing radiator. That alone makes sticking with steam worth it. Good luck sounds like a fun project.

    Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,190

    I have to admit I really don't know where to look for more information on those basement flues. I can tell you where I've seen them before: some old Vermont schools used them, and they did work and did work well. The "inefficiency" comes from using the basement as a sort of a plenum, if you will, for the return air — which means the basement is warmer and drier than it might otherwise be. This is not necessarily a bad thing! And you get the benefit of good air circulation.

    Estimating the EDR of the old radiation may be a bit tricky, but remember this: it is an estimate, not a hard number, and there will be no harm if you are off by even ten or 20 percent.

    It might be worth the expense of getting @Steamhead to come and look at the system (he's in Baltimore) and you might also be able to persuade @STEVEusaPA to come by. I think he's not that far from you.

    I'm glad you are sort of thinking in terms of restoration. It can be daunting at first — you often will not be able to go down to the Big Box and get a bit of something you need — but it needn't be that much more expensive than just remodelling. Perhaps the biggest thing is actually in your favour: take it slow!

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Intplm.Ironman
  • oldiron
    oldiron Member Posts: 3

    Thanks Grallert. Regarding your comment: "Also you'll really need to figure out what killed the first boiler." How exactly do I do that? If I fill up the boiler it's leaking water everywhere before the heat is even turned on.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,676

    I am sure that @Jamie Hall spoke correctly when saying the system was "Efficient". referring back to the days of district steam in Philadelphia. 🦅Go Birds 🦅!

    Getting a steam boiler that works properly with a proper exhaust vent should be no problem for a good Steam Pro. All the Phila Steam guys I know are retired or dead by now. But you can find a good one. The Crown boiler folks are still located in Philadelphia and they will know who is a good steam guy in the city. It is called Velocity Boiler Works now. You can drop my name Edward Young from South Jersey and you may get a little better response. I Installed the boiler in Yale's previous home in Margate NJ.

    The Crown boiler representatives are not supposed to recommend anyone company over another, but if you ask them if there is a particular steam person that might be available to consult before making another decision on weather or no to use a replacement crown boiler. Like someone as good as "Eddie Young". Have your model and serial number from the old crown boiler ready for them. You may get a referral but don't tell anyone that the factory recommended someone over another. That is not good for business and could cause some problems

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,503
    edited January 9

    A Warm and dry basement would be a categorically "Good" thing imho.

    Ducting external combustion air direct to the boiler would be indicated here.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,854

    That appears to be a 1 pipe steam system. To convert to water would require an almost complete and total re-pipe of the $y$tem, yes I used dollar signs on purpose. That said, pressure won't be an issue for pipes because you won't be able to use any of them, or at least, very few. This could be quite intrusive and most likely would involve opening up walls and such. Personally I wouldn't keep that option on the table. Yes you may gain some efficiency, but in no way shape or form will the conversion costs ever get paid back in fuel savings, in your life, or maybe even your kids life. Also a conversion assumes all radiation can be converted. Original steam radiators cannot be converted because of no top connections, so it depends what you have.

    For me, I'd get a new boiler, move it to a better spot, hook it up, get the system dialed in and bask in all it's warm glory. BUT and it's a big one, you need to have someone that knows steam to do this. I do my own work, including replacing my boiler. I find steam simple and relatively easy to understand, that doesn't seem to be common in the industry. I'd say if everyone you are calling is suggesting changes or conversions, you probably haven't found a good steam person yet.

    As far as the heat pump mini split idea, they are efficient to a point, but it's really about personal preference. I don't care for the barely warm air from a heat pump, but that is my personal preference, you may be fine with it. I can't deny the efficiency of them, it's real.

    As far as why the old boiler died so quickly, it's almost certainly due to leaks in the system. Excess makeup water kills these boilers, so that would be another thing on your list to address, finding and fixing any leaks there may be. Wet returns are a common culprit, after that look for steam leaks and address them. It's typically bad valve packing (easy fix) or bad vents, another easy fix.

    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    Ironmandelcrossv
  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,086

    If you decide to reuse those indirect radiators, you might consider ducting the return air directly from new floor grilles into the boxes and removing the basement air intakes. That would save fuel and keep the basement smell out of the rest of the house.


    Bburd
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,602

    That would require adding fans to the indirects as you would lose the chimney effect which produces the air convection through the radiators.

    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    delcrossvPC7060
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,503
    edited January 9

    And, with continuous flow, there shouldn't be any "basement smell". That's usually due to humidity lingering the the basement.

    I am curious as to how the cooler "return" air gets to the basement- leave the doors open?

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,086

    With all due respect, I think gravity circulation would work. The radiators are probably oversized for the existing load, and the heat pumps exist to supplement them.


    Bburd
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,479

    @oldiron , you definitely need a Steam Guy there. In the past I've recommended this company:

    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/pompetti-heating-and-air-conditioning-inc/

    but I haven't heard from them in some time. Can't hurt to call them though. Also, ISTR @EzzyT comes to Philly, but I'm not 100% sure of that.

    I have been known to come to Philly to consult, if needed.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 313
    edited 2:58AM

    Uncomfortable cold floors over basement are caused by air leaks. Much simpler to fix the leaks than throw more heat at it. For example in my uninsulated stone rubble foundation, I replaced the old leaky windows and air sealed the rim joist and even when in the teens here, the basement is around 62F.

    As for the heat, in any place that needs a lot of cooling, you are better of on figuring out a ducted solution. Since you already have the SM48NAMHZ, you can replace the main floor wallmounts with a ducted unit (around SVZ-KP30NA) in the basement and install a 2nd ducted unit (PEAD-A18AA) on the 3rd floor as you suggest. That should be able to carry a 2800sqft house in zone 5 with some new windows and some air sealing improvements. You can also esaly add a couple of takeoffs to add some extra heat to the basement, a warm basement means much more comfortable main floor.

    EDIT. An option if you can't get your load low enough, is to install a regular furnace in the basement with a PAA-A24AA1 coil connected to the SM48. This will get you much more heat plus still allow you to use the existing heat pump for AC.