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Steam Boiler Water Needs

josephny
josephny Member Posts: 335

I have a natural gas steam boiler for heating a building with 7 apartments and a retail store (4 stories in total).

McLean

EGH-95

400kbtu input

It has a VXT automatic water feeder and LWCO.

According to the VXT, the feeder is feeding almost 1/2 gallon per hour (yes, hour) of fresh water.

I have checked every inch of the heating system that I can — all radiators and feed/return pipes that I can see — and have not found any leaks.

This the record from the VXT:

table{mso-displayed-decimal-separator:"\.";mso-displayed-thousand-separator:"\,";}tr{mso-height-source:auto;}col{mso-width-source:auto;}td{padding-top:1px;padding-right:1px;padding-left:1px;mso-ignore:padding;color:black;font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:"Aptos Narrow", sans-serif;mso-font-charset:0;text-align:general;vertical-align:bottom;border:none;white-space:nowrap;mso-rotate:0;}.xl17{font-weight:700;text-decoration:underline;text-underline-style:single;}.xl22{font-weight:700;}

TIME

READING

USED

HOURS

GALLONS/HR

RUNNING AVE

12/15/24 17:00

21

12/16/24 18:00

27

6

25

0.24

12/19/24 13:00

42

15

67

0.22

0.23

12/23/24 11:00

87

45

94

0.48

0.35

12/24/24 14:00

98

11

27

0.41

0.36

12/27/24 15:00

133

35

73

0.48

0.39

12/28/24 13:00

140

7

22

0.32

0.39

12/30/24 18:30

153

13

53.5

0.24

0.37

12/31/24 13:30

162

9

19

0.47

0.37

1/2/25 16:30

198

36

51

0.71

0.41

1/9/25 0:00

271

73

151.5

0.48

0.43

From my reading of threads here, I believe that 10-12 gallons per day is far too much.

Is that correct?

What can I do to further troubleshoot?

Comments

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717
    edited January 9

    You have a BIG leak somewhere

    Are there any wet returns that go below the floor level? Any pipe (Steam or Water) that goes where you can see it is a potential leaker. I had a VXT feeder on a boiler in a church. It reached 999 on the readout, stopped feeding water and caused the boiler to lock out on Low Water. That is the only way I knew there was a hidden leaking return in a crawl space that was buried below the sand floor.

    Keep looking

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,564

    😨 And looking at the table it's getting worse.

    Do any of the return pipes go under the slab or are otherwise out of sight?

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335

    The boiler is in the basement — nothing below it.

    I don't know what to do and where to look further.

    Would this leak explain an hugely expensive monthly gas bill?

  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335
  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335
  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 1,909
    edited January 9

    Hello josephny,

    Up the chimney, inspect the exhaust gas outside, let the boiler cool, flood the boiler and see if it leaks.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    ethicalpaulTKPKSuperTech
  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335

    I'm not a pro, so please bear with me while I try to understand.

    Inspect the exhaust from up the chimney? For visible moisture?

    Does flood the boiler mean fill it completely with water? To see if the boiler sections are leaking?

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 1,909
    edited January 9

    Yes, the exhaust gas (outside, top of the chimney) will be much denser with water vapor, often very noticeable, looks like white smoke. And yes flood the boiler just over the top, if the heat exchanger is compromised it will leak.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,564

    Correct. Turn off boiler and fill up above the sections and look of leaks along the top of the boiler.

    If the leak is bad enough, you also would see white clouds coming from the chimney as the boiler is running.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,978

    respectfully, in an apartment building, if you aren’t a licensed, bonded, and insured pro, you shouldn’t be touching that boiler.

    The civil and perhaps criminal liabilities are astronomical

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,564
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,978

    I'm not a lawyer, but it doesn't matter if he's the landlord. What matters is he is not licensed or qualified to work on the boiler and 7 households plus businesses are impacted. That's all I'll say about it since I'm not the code police, but it's something to keep in mind.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    GrallertLRCCBJ
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 305
    edited January 9

    As a landlord in rural new mexico, I can tell you we have no choice but to figure things out ourselves on old boilers if we don't want to have to replace them with a new one every time there's an issue. Been trying to get someone out to measure the gas pressure and do a combustion analysis for my boiler, 3 appointments and 3 no-shows so far.

    If/when I ever need a new boiler I'm going to try an pay one of the guys on this forum to come out an do it.

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

    delcrossv
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,564
    edited January 9

    At least here in Illinois a landlord can always work on the building's equipment. No one would be able to afford properties if everything had to be subbed out to "professionals".

    Fix an outlet- call an electrician? Leaking sink, call a plumber? Really?

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    guzzinerd
  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335

    is it possible that the vxt is somehow incorrectly reporting how much water is being fed?

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,978

    It's only an estimate of actual water volume since it has no way to actually measure the water itself…it's only measuring the time that its valve is open and making an educated guess, but it kind of doesn't matter. It's having to refill way too often.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

    delcrossv
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,262

    It's possible. The VXT is not really a water meter, so what it is actually reporting is a combination of how often it is triggered and how much water it is programmed to supply on each trigger. Significant restrictions in flow can reduce the programmed amount.

    Now. That said, it is reporting when it is triggered — and it is triggered on low water. One might suppose well, suppose the low water trigger is false and the boiler isn't really low, but surging. In that case, sorry… the boiler would be wildly overfilled by now.

    Nope. I'm afraid the messenger, while not necessarily being completely accurate, is most likely not lying…

    You have steam or condensate leaks — or both.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    TKPKdelcrossv
  • Grallert
    Grallert Member Posts: 833

    @josephny Yes a water leak can explain an increase in gas consumption. All your new water has to be brought up to steam temp, were as your returning condensate is already near steam temp and doesn't require as much to bring back to steam temp. So leaks are bad. you pay for water one way or another and pay again to heat it up.

    Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver

  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335

    Sad when my greatest hope is to blame the messenger, but I should know better.

  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717

    OK… If there are no pipes that are hidden, then the water must be leaving in the gaseous state.  (steam is the gaseous state of water). That leak can be invisible because the steam may be leaving past a radiator valve with bad packing under the packing nut. A tenant may never know that leak is a problem. You could have an apartment where the  tenant has removed the steam vent from the radiator allowing their apartment to become very humid. A main vent in the basement may have failed. 

    The worst case scenario is the boiler has a leak above the water line.  That is what the others were referring to.  To test that theory you fill the boiler above the water line and look for water leaving the boiler by way of the leaking section or gasket. (Weil McLain uses rubber gasket rings between the sections).  That water will end up on the boiler room floor. Replacing a leaking section or gasket is a major project and will leave you without heat for a couple of days, or even longer.

    Look for the missing radiator vent in the apartments for a starting point.  also look for missing or leaking packing nuts. You never know why a tenant might do stupid things. 


    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335

    That is a great explanation.

    Over the past 2 weeks I have had every single radiator in the building checked. Found plenty of bad valves and even more bad vents. Even found a cracked radiator. Replaced the all. Absolutely cannot rely on tenants to bring this to our attention.

    But, you state that the steam can be invisible, so now I'm wondering if there are leaks that we missed.

    The other fact — and I don't know if relevant — is that the entire building has a single thermostat which is placed 1 flight up (2 flights up from the basement where the boiler is) in the public hallway. Right this moment it reads 62F and we just had a complaint from an apt on the top (4th) floor that their apt is too hot! So, could it be that the tstat placement is so poor/incorrect that the boiler is running far more than it should? Could that explain this excessive water usage?

  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335

    The boiler is running right now and the exhaust from the chimney is completely invisible. I can feel the heat, but nothing that in any way resembles steam.

    Here is a video:

    https://streamable.com/ormue3

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,564
    edited January 9

    Was the t-stat there last year? If so, you can remove it from the question . In any event it wouldn't account for gallons/day.

    You may want to repeat the looking for leaks exercise with a mirror. Steam will fog the mirror rendering the leaks visible. Still, that's a heck of a lot of water. Going. Somewhere.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,860

    It would not explain the excessive water usage. Does water usage go up when it's cold? Yes, but it won't go to the level you are describing. You should be able to go a month, typically longer before going off on low water. I know I add water to mine monthly and it's never actually close to low water when I do. The amount you are using per hour, should be the amount you are using over weeks of time, no matter how much the boiler is running.

    Moving the thermostat won't fix a balance issue. If you have a 10 degree differential across the building, you will still have a 10 degree differential across the building after moving. Keep the upstairs at 68, downstairs will possibly now be 58, which won't fly, comfort wise, or legal wise.

    Have to have proper main venting in the basement, after that balancing out the venting on radiators. Don't put the same vent on all of them, that's most likely what you have now and it's imbalanced.

    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,093

    This is unrelated to your water loss problem, but master thermostats in interior hallways of multi unit buildings are notoriously slow to sense the building's heating load and the response of the heating system, commonly leading to wide temperature swings.

    The comment above about venting and balancing is well taken but only part of the answer. There are several other solutions.

    Traditionally an outdoor thermostat was used, made by heat timer or Tekmar; these respond well to temperature but not to sun or wind load.

    A more modern solution is wifi sensors placed in several apartments and a central thermostat that averages the readings to control the heat.


    Bburd
    delcrossv
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,262

    Wonderful! If you had a significant boiler leak, you'd see it from that vantage point.

    Which is excellent news!

    What people often miss about leaks is that what looks like a huge amount of water may, if spread out over several places, be very hard to spot. Consider: 1 drop of water every 10 seconds is about two gallons of water per day. You're running around 12 gallons per day at the moment — but that is only 6 drip locations! Yes it's way too much water, but also yes… going to be a bear to find. This is the sort of thing that is often easiest to battle by paying close and consistent attention to more routine maintenance…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • jesmed1
    jesmed1 Member Posts: 872
    edited January 9

    What @bburd said.

    You need a modern multi-sensor thermostat with wireless sensors strategically distributed around the building.

    A hallway thermostat is notoriously bad, because if it's near stairwells or entrance doors it's going to be influenced by cold drafts every time someone opens the entrance door, and it will overheat the building as a result.

    I'm now trying to troubleshoot that same problem for a friend who rents shop space in a multi-use building. The thermostat is poorly located where it's sensitive to cold drafts from tenants entering and exiting the building, and a result, it periodically overheats the shop to 80+ degrees.

    I'm sure the landlord doesn't want to be paying for the fuel for that, but apparently he is unaware of the problem. In your case, you are aware of the problem, because at least one tenant has already complained of overheating. In a large building, a new thermostat system with remote wireless sensors could pay for itself in one or two heating seasons.

    bburd
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717

    @josephny said: Over the past 2 weeks I have had every single radiator in the building checked. Found plenty of bad valves and even more bad vents. Even found a cracked radiator. Replaced the all. Absolutely cannot rely on tenants to bring this to our attention.

    1. Have you repaired all the bad valves
    2. And vents? or are you still in the process of doing that?
    3. Has the cracked radiator been fixed? Or are you waiting for the replacement radiator?

    Those three items: vents ,valves and a crack can account for a large enough steam loss depending on the size of each item.

    Is there steam getting from the steam main to another location that is not visible? A disconnected radiator in a storage room that you have not looked in may have a opening that is letting steam out of the system on a large scale.

    That amount of water has to be going somewhere.

    Can you take some pictures of the boiler room and how the pipes from the returns connect back to the boiler. I'm looking for a pipe that you may be missing.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335
    edited January 11

    Update:

    All the leaking valves, vents and radiators I previously mentioned have been fixed over the past week or 2.

    I found another very slow leak at a radiator valve. Fixing it right now.

    @Jamie Hall: The explanation that 1 drop/10 seconds = 2 gallons/day is so enlightening. It is so easy to imagine 6 such drops existing. (Or 5 more after today's discovery.)

    @EdTheHeaterMan: I have a video, but it is dark. But really, the video shows what a massively messy basement it is and I have a strong hunch all of you pros will be able to point out no fewer than 1000 things that need fixing, so it's kind of embaressing. But, no visible steam or water.

    Reinspected the entire basement (lots and lots of old iron heating pipe). I don't see any pipe that going under ground (i.e., in or under the concrete floor). I also don't see any leaks whatsoever on the visible basement pipings.

    Thank you @bburd and @jesmed1 and @KC_Jones for the advice on fixing and improving the current poor tstat solution.

  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335

    Found 2 more problems and fixed today — one valve and a one vent (on different radiators).

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,436
    edited January 13

    You may want to pressurize the system with a small air compressor, plug the vents and find any leaks once and for all. Each one will whistle. The system will be tighter than it was when built.

  • josephny
    josephny Member Posts: 335

    That's a fascinating idea.

    How would I go about doing that? Would I need to dismantle the boiler piping? Go to each radiator and remove the the vent and insert a plug? There are close to 50 radiators connected to this boiler.

  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,436
    edited January 14

    Simple project once you commit to it.

    Get 50 1/8"plugs for the radiator vents. They're about fifty cents each from a real plumbing supplier. Then remove something like the pressuretrol from the boiler and pipe a quick-connect hose fitting for a small air compressor. Turn on the air compressor.

    Usually the compressor has a gauge or use the boiler gauge. Most systems are so leaky, they never build up much pressure. You can have someone monitor the pressure, turning off the compressor if it gets too high. Walk through the building tightening the valve packing and unions that are whistling like teapots. If the relief valve blows, you can plug it and watch that the pressure doesn't exceed 30 lbs.

    A short day's work, and you'll be good for the next 100 years. You'll be surprised at what you find.

    Now your only problem is getting into tenants' apartments.

    delcrossv