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Mitsubishi System Low Delta T

Hi all,

New to the forum and also not an engineer or an HVAC professional (so PLEASE do not yell at me for my flippant and likely incorrect use of Delta T, below), but I was hoping you could help me with an issue that has stumped my installer.

The basic issue is that when the system should be working the hardest to cool the home, it does not seem to be doing that (even when it is capable of it). See details below.

House/Install

  • A 3 story rowhouse. Old but fairly well insulated (due to brick walls and having neighbors attached on both sides). HVAC is probably 2-3 ton ducts even though it is a ~2200 square foot house because the HVAC system was installed 100 years after the house was built.
  • We installed a Mitsubishi split system last year to try and fix the fact that the primary bedroom on the top floor was completely underserved by the air throughout the house. The idea was also to eventually go ductless in ALL of the top floor bedrooms (2 remaining) and then cap the duct to the top floor and just use the ducted unit on the first floor and basement.

System

  • Mitsubishi Smart Multi hyper heat pump
  • Branch box: PAC-MKA52BC (it is the 5 branch box, so that we can eventually go with 3 ductless and 1 ducted, but currently only has 2 units attached).
  • MLZ-KY06NA ductless unit (in master bedroom on top floor). [I'll call this the "ductless unit" below]
  • SVZ-KP30NA air handler [I'll call this the "ducted" unit, below]

Problem

Basically, the system is fully capable of producing a Delta-T of 20 degrees, but this changes throughout the day, and in particular, in the late afternoon (i.e. 5pm-7pm) on hot days, the delta-T drops dramatically both on the air handler and on the ductless unit. Here are some measurements on a hot DC day (90 degree outside):

  1. 12:21pm: thermostat at 69, indoor temp at 70 at thermostat, ductless upstairs measures 45 degrees at register, ducted measures at 52 at register (so VERY good performance)
  2. 7:15pm: thermostat at 70, indoor temp at 73 (it has been at 70 the whole time, so the system has allowed the air temperature to rise 3 degrees throughout the day while running fairly consistently). Ductless measures 57 return (up 12 degrees), ducts measure 60 (delta T of 13, when it was 18 earlier).
  3. 9:54pm: thermostat set to 70, now indoor temp at 74, ductless measures 61 (up another 4 degrees since 7:15pm), ducted measures at 63 (delta T now at 11).
  4. 11:38pm: thermostat at 70, indoor temp is 73, ductless measures 63 (up another 2 degrees since 10pm) and ducted measures at 65 (delta T of 8).

At SOME POINT the system resets overnight and the air gets super cold again. Then every day during the summer this cycle rinses and repeats.

Something that does seem to fix it: A hard reset

When I shut it down myself at the breaker and then restart it, I can sometimes get it to drop. For example:

  1. At 7:30pm on a hot night, the AC was at 70 (air temp was 71) and the temps coming out of the register were only 62 (so 9 degrees difference).
  2. Then I flipped the breaker for 10 min.
  3. When I flipped it back on the ducted had temps of 55 degrees (Delta T 16) and the ductless had temps of 52 degrees (Delta T 20)

Tech Troubleshooting

  • So far, they have assured me that the pressure seems fine and the measure of the coolant in the system is fine (no pressure problems?).
  • They took high tech measurements using a computer for 36 hours and sent it to Mitsubishi and Mitsubishi has said that it appears normal (though my tech is pushing for them to send it to the second level of engineering troubleshooting).

Any ideas what is going on?

Comments

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,545

    A new install?

    luke_dc
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,822

    What is the model number of the outdoor unit?

    Did the recording include the time when it was under performing? I would have included a reset in that to show them what's happening when that happens, especially if it results in the unit performing better.

    luke_dc
  • luke_dc
    luke_dc Member Posts: 4

    thanks for the comments so far. Yes it is a new install and it is a matching outdoor unit for the air handler: SUZ-KA30NAHZ

  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 5,545

    time to call the installing contractor

  • luke_dc
    luke_dc Member Posts: 4

    well I did, they have been good and are diamond installers and have also sent data to Mitsubishi. But looking for any additional information or experience here so I’m armed with a bit more than just a “hunch” that something is wrong since this is now being escalated and everyone who comes out to look at it is baffled by what could be the issue.

  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 365

    These units have an adjustable evaporator target temperature. It is either a jumper or a setting in the installer menu on the thermostat, see link bellow for the manual. You can set it to lower temp which should fix the issue:

    https://mylinkdrive.com/USA/M_Series/R410A_Systems-3/Outdoor_Equipment/R410A_Outdoor/MXZ_SM36NAMHZ2_U1?product&categoryName=R410A_Outdoor

    The many small wallmounts is a problematic setup. Your setup is the much better option and will generally run at higher COP. If the SVZ air handler and ducting is in the attic, getting somebody with a duct blaster to seal up the ducting is your best option. Despite what minisplit marketing says, an air handler with a real filter and ducting is your friend.

  • luke_dc
    luke_dc Member Posts: 4

    ok, so what if you don’t have access to these settings. Do I have to call the installer? They are password protected.

  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 365

    Probably the default. Something like 0000, 1111 or 9999.

    Make sure you read the manual in detail and adjust only the right setting.

    It might also be a jumper setting which you need to disassembly the outdoor unit for to access. That is not a DIY job.

  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,896

    I'll offer commentary. You said the outdoor is a SUZ-KA30NAHZ?

    How many outdoor units do you have?

    That SUZ doesn't work with a branch box, I must be missing something

    But yes, i agree, something isn't right. But I am unsure of your configuration

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,896

    i’m definitely missing something simple. Not sure how the branch box fits into this equation.

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 365

    The SM will only work with a branch box or SM specific indoor units that have an integral EEV. It doesn't have any ports like the smaller multisplits.

    You still have the indoor unit electrical power limit to watch so only 1 SVZ if powered from the SM directly.

    Pretty much the same as the older MXZ8C units.

  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,896

    still confused, SM or SUZ? I feel silly, I’m the only one not putting the pieces together here.

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com