Low loss header off of buffer tank?
hello new here, have a ? About a low loss header off a buffer tank, so I have a boiler in a mechanical room in a garage, this boiler is feeding a 50 gallon buffer tank, this tank then feed a supply and return 2” , that go under around 100’ there and 100’ back to garage mechanical, these 2 lines then feed a system header with several pumps that feed the in floor heatin the house, the two lines from the buffer tank are pumped to, 2 low loss header tees, the pump off the buffer to the low loss header feeding system header isn’t high velocity pump, my question and or problem is I am not getting the temp I need out of the low loss header it is like the pump is not letting it go into system, or do I even need a pump and low loss header is a long way to the house from garage, the buffer tank is nice and hot but my system water is struggling, thanks
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ya I know a buffer tank is a low loss header. But the lines that go from the house to the garage are 250 overall, the mechanical is in garage which feeds the house. So would the zone pumps actually pull from the buffer tank if supply and returns were that far? Also the reason for the low loss header of the buffer tank was to get the heated water to house
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essentially the problem I’m having is out of the low loss head on the header with the system pumps. I am barely getting any heat out of that low loss header meaning the supply side of that low loss header has heat coming out of it, but it is not what it is supposed to be ,,again the reason I have a low loss header on the system side and also a buffer tank is for the fact that the house and Garage are separated by about 250 feet of underground pipe,,,so my designer thought it would be good to put in a pump on the buffer tank, to pump off the buffer tank into a low loss header on the system side, which is the system side of of the heat, which is a header full of zone pumps .
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A couple things to add to that is the pump off of the buffer tank is a high velocity pump. Also, the pipe going in to the house from the bumper tank in the garage is 2 inch pipe, for some reason it is like that pump is either airlocked or it is pulling the water, right back to the tank instead of letting the system pump
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For any arrangement of piping where there is one circulation loop — in this case, your main line from the mechanical space to the house and back — and several other loops pulling off of it and returning to it, with a way for the main flow to bypass the other loops, it's all a matter of relative flow rates.
One needs to consider primarily that bypass, and the question always is — which way is the flow going in the bypass? If your main loop has a relatively high flow rate, and the total of all the secondary loops pulling off it is less than the main loop, then the flow in the bypass will be from the secondary loop takeoffs towards the secondary loop returns, and on back to the source. On the other hand, if your secondary loops in some combination or combinations pull more flow than the main is delivering, then the flow will be the other way, and the secondary loop water will be a mix of lower temperature return water and higher temperature main water.
Fundametally it doesn't matter whether it's a low loss header with all the secondaries coming out and coming back or a simple single manifold pipe — so long as there is a way for main loop water to bypass the secondaries, you will have this hydraulically.
So the question I would ask is what is the flow rate, in gpm, in that big main loop, and what are the flow rates in your secondary loops (velocity is irrelevant here — what you need is gallons per minute).
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
OK I think I understand. I will try to get the GPM off of the main loop and then get the GPM‘s off of all of the system pubs with that said I have another question for you if I pull the pump off of the buffer tank and just made the supply and return a simple supply and return without any low loss header with those pumps pull off of the buffer tank from the garage to the house with that much 2 inch pipe on the supply and return
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Will those pumps pull off the buffer tank? hmm. Well, that would depend on the head loss through that long pipe and the relative elevation of the buffer tank and the rest of the system, and whether or not it was pressurized. The key factor will be what is the absolute pressure at the pump inlets when they are all running. That must be at least atmospheric pressure, or you would risk cavitation — which will ruin a pump in a hurry. There is also the factor of the total head they have to pump against from the various losses in the piping.
One thing if you were to do that, you would want a supply manifold and a return manifold at the house — and no bypass. If you wanted to temper one particular loop, you could do that, with the tempering valve pulling from the supply header and the loop return with the tempering valve on the suction side of that pump, and the excess return going to the return manifold.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
do a simple drawing, take a picture of it and post it. It may be easier to comment on
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
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this is just a simple drawing, the pumps are correctlly Installed with buffer tank and system pumps
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more accurate drawing
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You probably have a pump flow issue that is out of Wack between the two pumps
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the I can get hot water to the system lowloss header but it’s I s acting like it is not a lot, meaning the buffer tank is hot let’s say 160 and down and the system header it is only like 90
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The closely spaced tees is the llh?
So depending on how many gpm the zone pumps are pulling from the 2" loop is what determines the mixed temperature to the zone pumps.
Basically the 160 supply from the buffer is mixing with whatever temperature is returning from the zones.
What size pump on the 250' loop of 2"
What are the zone pump gpms?
If you know temperatures and gpm flow rates you can determine the mixed temperature. But it gets complicated with multiple zone pumps kicking on and off, changing the gpm.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
so from the buffer to the pump manifold
250' of 2" pex flowing 25 gpm puts you right at 4 fps velocity, so that would be a good flow rate to target.
Now you need a pump capable of 25 gpm @ 7' head A high flow, low head circ something like this Grundfos 43-100
If in fact you need 25 gpm at the zone pumps?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Again, you're very difficult to understand but if I'm gathering this correctly, you're saying you have 160* leaving the tank but only 90* at your manifold. If that's the case, either it's airbound or your underground loop is giving it all off to the surrounding soil. The latter is very common with homemade/ drain tile type line sets. How is the underground piping done? Take a temp measurement at the inlet and outlet of the buffer, and then the inlet and outlet of what you're calling the LLH.
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ok, well I’m back asking questions again with a little more info on the system pumps and the pump coming out of buffer tank. So I have 5 taco 009 pumps and 2 taco 007 pumps which or on the system loop, this loop is fed through 2 close tees which are 2”, the supply
And return feeding these close tees are about 125’ each. The pump that is pulling out of buffer tank is a taco 2400-70-3p. The question again is the system loop is like it is not getting the hot water needs, also I have another ? Pertaining to the supply sensor where should I locate it the heating system, it is I the sytem loop now and and the boiler is not acting right thanks for all your help
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Is this all an open un-pressurized piping system. The OWF is not pressurized? No heat exchangers in the system?
If so, move the Taco 2400 down to the bottom connection of the buffer tank, pumping into the tank.
This puts a little bit of pressure on that pump. At 180F water temperature that pump would probably like about 4 psi to prevent cavitation, (formation of vapor pockets in the fluid) . Cavitation presents itself as air bubbles and prevents the pump from moving a solid stream of fluid., see below.
So the lower in the piping, the more water pressure is exerted.
If the tank is 6' tall. 6 X .433= 2.5 psi on the pump. Not ideal, but better that up top with 0 psi
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
there is no heat exchanger, and there is probably about 1415 pounds of pressure on the boiler and the whole system.
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the buffer tank is about 5 feet tall and is 50 gallons
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How do you come up with 1415 PSIG
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I guess I’m assuming that, but the boiler is fed with a feed valve that pits 14 pounds of water into the whole system, the boiler gauge is reading 14 pounds .
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Water exerts just less that 1/2 psi for every foot in height, .433 really
This is true at the bottom of a lake or the bottom of a tea cup. The pressure on your components is just about the amount of water height above them. Nothing at all to do with the volume of water or the weight of a gallon of water.
Vapor pressure is the minimum amount of pressure that must be applied to the liquids surface to prevent it from boiling.
With that pump up high on the tank you may not have any pressure. Move the pump to the bottom of the tank, just as it is on the OWF, and I predict your troubles go away.The water level in the OWF is the highest elevation point in the system. Else the water would spill out the top vent opening.
If you are interested in the numbers, here is how OWF systems go negative pressure.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
thank you i appreciate ya
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