reusing skimed water…

heat1999 · December 18

do you suppose that you could eliminate the these several issues with skimming with a simple aquarium pump setup?

issue one would be adding fresh water, I don’t feel the need to explain why…

Issue two would be that fresh water is cold, and after many years of reading on this site I would say people generally like to skim right after a boil, and I’d rather not put cold water in my hot boiler

so I guess my question is… could one use an cheap $10 aquarium pump mounted about halfway up a bucket so it doesn’t suck any surface water, pump the water right back into the boiler.

that means I’m not putting any make up water in, and the water that’s going back into the boiler is not cold, you could run it for hours, collecting all the surface water in the bucket,

let me hear your thoughts

ethicalpaul · December 18

You could, but that is farther than even I would go, and that's saying something

I wouldn't skim right after a boil, I would wait a few hours for the oils to make it to the surface and settle down. Then the water will still be warm enough. At the rate you add water during skimming you don't have to worry about adding cold water IMO.

Neild5 · December 18

The whole purpose of skimming is to remove the oils and other contamination that floats on the surface of the boiler water. To skim successfully you either need to do what Paul described, let the water settle, or start the boiler from cold and heat the water to 180⁰F and skim. In order to not transfer the oils and contamination back into the boiler, you would need special equipment to filter that out of the water, and still need to add makeup water. I doubt the expense would justify the small benefit.

heat1999 · December 18

well I live across the street from the pet supply store, pump is six bucks I already had the tubing, I’ll give it a shot, for **** and giggles, I don’t think I’m gonna hurt anything, water is 180°, about 20 minutes after a boil

delcrossv · December 18

That's an awfully low tapping to be skimming from. 🤨

heat1999 · December 18

well it’s been running for about an hour, and I didn’t think there was any oil in the bucket, but then I touched it and realize there’s a lot of oil in that bucket😁

mattmia2 · December 18

You would want to put it back in below the water line so you're not stirring up the surface. The closer you can get it to boiling without actually boiling it the more fluid the oil will be and the less of it will stick to the inside of the boiler. 25 degrees warmer will make a difference.

A slower pump would work better too, that velocity is going to create a fair bit of turbulence on the surface and mix the oil in.

like others have said I'm pretty sure that is not the skim port on that boiler so you're only getting like half of the oil and only from that last section.

delcrossv · December 18

Umm. You skim from a high point. Why are you skimming from near the bottom?

heat1999 · December 19

I am skimming it from there because it’s the only port that I have available to me at the minute I just bought the house and I plan on fixing all the issues with this boiler

delcrossv · December 19

Ok, just be aware that there will be oil clinging to the heat exchanger higher up.

Sure you can't access a high port?

heat1999 · December 19

yeah I just found a higher port on the boiler, it’s about at the top of the site glass, there’s a plug I’ll have to make a square socket for it tomorrow in my shop, I’ll move the skim port up there

mattmia2 · December 19

look to see where the skim port is in the manual. it has to be above where the top of sections of the boiler connect together so the surface of the water is above all of the sections

109A_5 · December 19

How does the pump hold up to the hot water ?

Oils settling out ? I did an experiment years ago, for a different purpose, Gasoline and Water in a clear glass jar shaken vigorously, the two settled out in seconds, maybe oil and water are different.

EdTheHeaterMan · December 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1827750#Comment_1827750

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1827784#Comment_1827784

Here is an illustration of what @mattmia2 is referring to: Different boiler but same idea. by skimming below the top connector you are only skimming one section, not the entire boiler.

Screenshot 2024-12-18 at 10.05.25 PM.png

Click on photo to zoom in

I located a photo of a WM boiler and the dimensions of that boiler from an old manual. In the manual tapping D is the skim port. It is about 1 to 2 inches above the water line. By placing red lines on the unassembled sections in the photo on the right, you can clearly see that the suggested skim tapping is at the point where the top boiler section connection is the widest. This will allow for the most efficient movement of the water surface to the skim port. Floating oils and debris will more easily move from all the boiler sections to the outlet. Not just that front section.

If you select a lower tapping (like you have pictured) only the surface of the front section has access to the skim exit. It is important to use the proper tapping.

Intplm. · December 19

In your picture, you have a higher skim port in the upper right-hand corner. Go from there.

heat1999 · December 19

I looked up where the skim tapping is supposed to be in the manual, made a tool to get the plug out, now I can skim from the top

The discharge end of the hose is well below the waterline.

The pump is holding up great, earlier the water was so hot that I couldn’t touch it, but it didnt care and was chugging away

i’ve crimped piece of Romex around the tube to slow it down a lot, it’s been running like that for hours,

thanks for the info guys

EdTheHeaterMan · December 19

That looks better. But why is your water so purple? What have you added to it? And you are absolutely sure that none of the top scum/oil/debris is getting the the pump in the bottom of the bucket?

I only imagine that you are skimming stuff out the top and putting it back in at the other end. At that rate you can skim for years and never get clean water in your boiler.

heat1999 · December 20

am I absolutely sure? no lol

i’ve added more water to the bucket since, pumps about 6 inches below the water line, about 3 inches off the bottom

I added some 8 way a while ago, this boiler was severely dirty

109A_5 · December 20

A home made tool, I like it. I've been collecting 8 point sockets.

delcrossv · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828034#Comment_1828034

They, and 4 point, are still made.

ethicalpaul · December 20

OK I have to hand it to you, you did something pretty cool there. Great job on removing that plug and making the tool for it!

that's a good amount of 8-way in my opinion. I too hate draining nicely-treated water so good on you!

If everyone had water treatment like this in their boilers they would all be lasting 40 years plus I'm convinced.

Ed, surely you saw my short video about how water treatment nearly eliminates corrosion? I'll post it here for you just in case because I'm shameless haha

Here's the first one showing my 1 year experiment (my water is clear in this one because I used lye instead of 8-way to boost the pH, but 8-way is better because it has this built-in color marker that you see in the photos above)

Here's the second one showing a more casual experiment with fittings just sitting in tap water vs sitting in 8-way water

ethicalpaul · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828036#Comment_1828036

Clearly they are made. @heat1999 just made one 😍

heat1999 · December 20

lmao thanks for the comments guys!

PAUL!!! I can’t believe you commented on my post! i’ve watched all your videos, your a steam God!

it would be my dream to have a steam boiler set up like yours! such a clean build!

before I made the skimming set up I was thinking to myself how it would be so awesome if you did some testing with the aquarium pump in a bucket to see if it actually does remove the oil and contain it in the bucket

While I have this steam celebrities attention, 😁I have a question about those site glasses on your boiler, I would love to install two of them on my risers, and perhaps a couple on the mains horizontally,

my question to you would be how rigid do you think those site glasses are? The reason why I ask is because I have a feeling when I cut one of the mains to install one that there’s gonna be some tension… like the pipes are no longer gonna wanna sit exactly in line with each other anymore, they’re probably going to move a good half inch to an inch, but I think I can just push them back with not too much force to get them realigned, maybe a couple pounds of pressure with my hand would straighten them back out again, do you think that those sight glasses are strong enough laterally to not break the glass if the forces are say a couple pounds,

or would it be safe to say that they should be exactly in line with one another before you would install the site glass?

again you’re the man, keep posting videos of your boiler we all love them

ethicalpaul · December 20

Wow thank you for the kind words! I just followed the examples of the great installers who had generously posted on this forum for my build, especially @Dave0176 and @EzzyT and @New England SteamWorks

The sight glasses, especially the larger ones are very very strong. There is a lot of thick stainless steel in each one. They have 4 rods that take the force so it's not on the glass.

But having said that, what I would recommend is that after you cut the main, you put enough hangers or support on them so that they are aligned so that the hangers take most of the load, including lateral loads. There is considerable load on mine…there is lateral load from the tension in my header and in the one higher up, it is under vertical tension. A couple pounds is no problem at all. I would say 20 pounds is no problem, but I haven't tested it except by leaning on them heavily to make my header connections align 😅 When you get one in your hand you will see what I mean. Maybe @ChrisJ will say what he thinks, he has seen one in person.

NOTE that the friction between the hangers and the expanding/contracting main could result in expansion noises or slipping. That could be minimized by using slippery plastic like milk jug material or similar, or maybe by using those hangers with integrated rollers.

I have long thought about installing a horizontal one with a purposeful sag so that I can see water hammer but I haven't gotten to it yet.

ethicalpaul · December 20

one more tip about ordering them…the sizes are nominal outside dimensions unlike npt pipe, so when you order one to fit on a 2" pipe, order a 2.5" one. And the inside dimension might not align perfectly with the steel pipe interior so there is an opportunity for a little water to pool, but it shouldn't be enough to cause problems.

heat1999 · December 20

wow man thank you for all the advice,

yea that would be cool to see what’s happening with water hammer through the glass

I definitely will make sure the mains are hung correctly and not too much force on the glass,

you explained all that perfectly, that’s just what I need is 2 inch so I’ll order 2 1/2 inch,

this boiler needs just about a full replumb, it’s been surging and taking water up the mains to the point where it’s almost going to trip the lwco

it was really dirty, it hadn’t been cleaned in about 10 years

I think the plumbing is now the problem

before I do the site glasses I’m going to re-plum the bottom half of the boiler

there’s a lot of copper pipe and wrong sizes, actually I think it’s all wrong, I’ll show everybody a picture, I have an idea of how I was going to replumb it, but I would love to hear everybody’s opinion, I will likely follow all of the good instructions

The piece of copper pipe running from top to bottom with the blue tape near the bottom is NOT part of the boiler, it’s for something else

delcrossv · December 20

That's actually not bad. I'd enlarge the equalizer/header drain and do that and your Hartford Loop in iron pipe.

Copper for wet returns is fine.

ChrisJ · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828226#Comment_1828226

I did my equalizer in copper………

ethicalpaul · December 20

Yeah I think you're in good shape for your near boiler piping too. The equalizer and hartford loop don't bother me. With those tall double risers your header should be bone dry. If you put a sight glass on one of them you'll know for sure. Put it close to the boiler so you can see if any drops of water at all are getting thrown up.

I will wager the surging is all due to water quality.

heat1999 · December 20

well that’s good to hear, if you guys don’t think that a majority of the plumbing isn’t too bad, maybe I’ll throw a site glass on one of the risers first, one of them would actually be really easy to do and I’ll see what’s going on in there, fix the plumbing later and see if it changes,,

hey paul when you say water quality are you talking about PH, oil or both?

heres my ph

delcrossv · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828231#Comment_1828231

That small though?

ChrisJ · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828241#Comment_1828241

No, I did a 2" type K.

But I don't know that it matters at this point either way honestly. The main downside was a 2" copper equalizer and fittings wasn't exactly budget friendly.

ethicalpaul · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828240#Comment_1828240

I mean oils and maybe also dissolved solids. Not pH.

pH gets blamed but I think it's the other stuff in the treatment that frees up scale and sediment putting it suddenly into the water itself.

Also, and I have to do a video about this, but I recently learned those pH test strips (that I used to love), are not accurate when used with a pH buffer that 8-way and other products use to keep pH level within the desired level of around 10.

A pH buffer seems to make the strips read much darker than the actual pH. So I am moving over to electronic pH meters. But I have to find out if they are also affected by buffer solutions!

heat1999 · December 20

oh I see, that’s interesting, ok ill do some more skimming with fresh water and see if it helps, ill get back you guys, i ordered the site glass from Amazon should be here in a few days I’ll see if I can hook it up

EBEBRATT-Ed · December 20

@heat1999

I don't know if re using the boiler water is the way to go or not. If you think it works well more power to you. I can only say from my experience that I usually put TSP or washing soda in the boiler and bring the boiler up to just below steaming. 1 lb of tsp or washing soda will do a boiler that holds 50 gallons at the water line so a residential boiler is much less than that around a 1/4 of a lb or so. I have never had to do a boiler more than once. To me you need something to break up the oil but that is just my opinion.

mattmia2 · December 21

can't mention the steam gods without mentioning @DanHolohan

mattmia2 · December 21

exactly what problem are you trying to solve here? unless it is really surging or priming that drop header should put the water back in the boiler. return piping isn't too picky for the most part except that returns from different mains have to connect below the water line. too much pressure can still make them connect even if they are below the water line. return piping above the water line that holds water can cause violence but if there is no way for the air to get out then the steam shouldn't be able to get in to find the water

heat1999 · December 21

well the reason I posted I was genuinely curious about reusing the water, I figured it was easy enough to give it a shot

but it didn’t fix my problem, so it either didn’t work or I have other issues

when the boiler starts up from cold, at about 120° the water starts rising up about a half inch,but steady, not jumping up and down, by the time it reaches about 170-180 it starts creeping down, by the time it hits about 210 it’s about an inch below the normal waterline

it will run like that the whole cycle, doesn’t really bounce up and down a whole lot, maybe a half inch, but generally stays about an inch below the normal waterline The whole heating cycle, I can tell it’s pretty close to tripping the lwco

i’ve already added a big 2 inch plug to the drain port and completely pressure washed the inside of the boiler out, I took two spare pressure washing tips and welded them together to make a small 90° tip for my pressure washer, I think it worked great, I pressure washed it for several hours until the water came out clear, I got a lot of rust out of it,

after skimming it a few times and reusing the water my problem didn’t get any better… although I do think it worked at least some, there sure was oil that was left in the bucket, whether I got all of the oil out I don’t know

so now since my problem hasn’t gotten any better I’ve been skimming it with fresh water, about four hours

so now it’s full of fresh water and been skimmed I watched it this morning it did the same thing,

for what it’s worth, before I cleaned it, The water stayed at the normal water line until it was boiling and would just bounce around about a half inch I wasn’t worried about tripping low-water cut off at all, and overall it just seemed a lot more stable…

I know that the plumbing is screwed up, and I’m going to fix it, I’m in no rush I have another source of heat, and I enjoy working on it, but if you guys think that the plumbing could possibly work the way it is, i’ll keep skimming it and see if it gets better, or do whatever you guys think, The site glass is coming on Tuesday so I’ll have that on there soon after