2-pipe Radiator Experiments, parts 1, 2, and now 3 with insane reverse pitch!!

ethicalpaul · December 18

In this first simple experiment, motivated by @Charlie from wmass, I wanted to see how much water sits in a radiator when it is properly pitched vs when it is backwards pitched.

It made me wonder, why don't all radiators bang every time steam enters them when they are cold?

Watch the short 7 minute video here and then tell me what kind of results I will see when I can put some steam into my test radiator and tilt it.

Edit: Here is part 2 showing 2-pipe experimental boiler with normal pitch

Edit 2: Here is part 3 with the reverse pitch

109A_5 · December 18

Venting and steam velocity may have an influence.

Um, wrong link ? Maybe this one.

https://youtu.be/B-BYufZWoUo

ethicalpaul · December 18

how embarrassing, wrong link indeed, now corrected, thank you!

In my observation, the whole idea of venting affecting the rate that steam travels through a radiator is overstated.

Yes the vent gets the steam to the radiator fast or slow, but once the steam has reached the radiator, all of it gives up its heat to the radiator and it moves slowly across the radiator even with a size D vent on there. Similarly to how steam can only travel through a cool or warm main pipe so fast…it doesn't travel far at a time because it doesn't last long enough to travel

109A_5 · December 18

I would think the steam flow, what ever it happens to be, would remain fairly constant until about the time the vent closes, since the radiator is constantly condensing the steam. During that time the new condensate will warm the old condensate and maybe reduce the noise, if any. My radiators are pretty quiet.

ethicalpaul · December 18

yeah I think we’re thinking the same. I was speaking about the idea that steam races across a radiator, which I see now you weren’t saying.

Mine are all silent except one that ticks as it heats, but that could be mechanical.

It will be interesting if I can get it to hammer

Charlie from wmass · December 18

Because steam is lighter than air. This is the start of the heat cycle on a radiator. The steam does not rush across the bottom of the radiator so the condensate warms the water gradually. And this is a steam only radiator in this photo with no connection across the top. They have deeper pockets of water on the bottom and no secondary passage across the top for the steam.

Charlie from wmass · December 18

On some of the older radiators we have a 2-in bushing and a 1 inch supply. They hold significantly more water and yet usually no water hammer. Moving the radiator also can move the pipe in the floor. If changing the level helps it may mean you change the pitch of the pipe supplying the radiator. Correlation is not causation.

ethicalpaul · December 18

thanks @Charlie from wmass , that lines up with what I’ve seen.

ethicalpaul · December 20

I have just posted part 2 of this series.

In this video, I set up my test radiator as a two-pipe radiator fed from my 1-pipe system with the condensate draining from the radiator trap into a bucket. Since the radiator is pitched normally in this video to set a baseline, the video ends up being more of a demo of how traps work, which I found to be pretty interesting if I do say so myself!

If you enjoy watching water run at various speeds out of a Hoffman 17c trap, this video is for you! 😅

Here is the video: YouTube link for if you want to comment on the video's vertical format or to correct anything dumb I said!

https://youtu.be/nAzAtf8aSGo

109A_5 · December 20

If you potentially want to get some hammer going you may have to feed the radiator at the bottom port, but your CSST may fill up and cut off the steam flow.

You should have the scanner on in case the Boiler Police or Steam Police decide to do a raid.

dopey27177 · December 20

The effort you made is outstanding. Here is a correction to your experiment.

The discharge of the radiator in both examples should have been made with eccentric couplings.

Eccentric couplings would cause all the water to drain out of a properly pitched radiator.

The examples you posted are only for two pipe systems.

One pipe systems have steam and condensate entering and leaving the same port on the radiator,

I will post a discussion on one pipe steam systems that may clear up some puzzling facts.

JAKE

ethicalpaul · December 20

Thanks, Jake! Yes I’m aware of the alleged issues with concentric couplings acting as a “dam”, that is one reason I’m doing this, to see if it matters. So far, it doesn’t. I will be trying one pipe testing soon.

Even if it did matter, where can any of us acquire eccentric couplings? They are unobtanium today.

Finally, have a look at this photo below. Every section has the equivalent of a concentric reducer inside of it, yet radiators seem to work. This is a 1-1/4 outlet with about a 3/4” opening behind it, and every section has this.

Charlie from wmass · December 20

@ethicalpaul and the photo you have here shows why eccentric bushings are no longer even available. They don't matter. There are cases that call for eccentric couplings but radiators don't care. I have had many radiators that had concentric bushings on each side of differing diameters and still did not hammer. Even the ones that had three quarter inch inlets and half inch outlets. It's not the water in the radiator causing the hammer.

KC_Jones · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1827597#Comment_1827597

My entire upstairs 1 pipe steam only radiators are fed with 1" and do indeed have 2" connections at the radiator with concentric bushings. I have zero hammer in my system.

I have a very quite well tuned system, but if you look at what I have it pretty well violates every rule.

concentric reduction in my main from 2" to 1 1/2"
all take offs from the main are at 90°
single pipe radiators fed with 1", the largest being 40 EDR

As near as I can tell all that is original to the installation of the system. My steam was added after the house was built, the house was originally heated with parlor stoves. Steam is very forgiving, which is great, but it also leaves me scratching my head as to how wrong some of these systems must be to be hammering. Well I have theories, but I'm not derailing this thread with them.

Charlie from wmass · December 20

This is also why counterflow systems can work. Steam and water can occupy the same passages as long as they have room to move past each other and interact gradually.

ethicalpaul · December 20

Thanks Charlie, that's what I've seen here too. In the next video I reverse the radiator pitch to really put it to the test including IR camera shots of what's going on!

This is also why counterflow systems can work. Steam and water can occupy the same passages as long as they have room to move past each other and interact gradually.

👍️ And if you think about it (I'm sure you have!), every single pipe radiator runout is counter-flow. Look at that radiator above…the one I have is small, but they sell them large with those same castings (taller and more sections). Steam is flowing into that 3/4" hole between sections at the same time water is flowing out and it somehow manages.

And we worry about a level radiator? Or we worry about a 2" main or header having a little counterflow at the boiler? It's a non-issue. Thanks for watching and for the conversation, all!

ChrisJ · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828155#Comment_1828155

Many people don't know exactly what happens or why it happens and they follow general rules never questioning anything.

And that's ok.

I feel there's a problem when people make fun of others for questioning things or trying to get a better understanding rather than just accepting hearsay. That's not right.

delcrossv · December 20

I did have condensate retention issues with one rad. Sounded like a washing machine. Went from 1" to 1-1/2 through the valve and then reduced on the riser back to 1". Solved it.

So there are workarounds to not having eccentric bushings.

Note, it was an old rad with a full size passage at the bottom.

ethicalpaul · December 20

Let me be very clear. I'm not making fun of anybody.

ChrisJ · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828163#Comment_1828163

No, you're not.

And I don't think you ever have that I can remember. You read my comment backwards somehow.

Charlie from wmass · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828163#Comment_1828163

I think @ChrisJ is encouraging experimentation not accusing you of making fun of anyone. If one can't question the science it isn't strong science.

ethicalpaul · December 20

Haha indeed I did, I mistakenly thought you were saying I was making fun of people for pitching their radiators. Hell I'm one of those people (but I won't worry about it after this, for sure). Sorry for the mixup

ChrisJ · December 20

If I made a meme that said "ethicalpaul accepts hearsay and never questions anything or anyone" I'd get a record amount of LOL's.

Waher · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828135#Comment_1828135

I’m wondering if the primary reason why Baseray doesn’t play well with one pipe steam is the typical installations not using large enough radiator valves and supply pipes for the EDR requirements to allow condensate to slip under steam at the valve side. Factor in any inadequate pitch and the vent location not being at the middle height position unless supplemental piping is added to create a mid height connection.

I wonder if one pipe Base Ray installations with 1” or 1-1/4” valves matched to the EDR requirements bushed down to the 3/4” tapping would work.

Charlie from wmass · December 20

If you used both 3/4" tappings and a 1" or 1 1/4" supply it would improve the function. The piping gets messy though. Using a return with a water leg often improves the function. The vent on top causes the lower corner to remain relatively cool. This is only a 3 foot piece and the vent is on the left end.

Waher · December 20

I’ve found 4’ of pitched Baseray with a Gorton No4 at the top tapping seems to work because the 3/4” pipe matches the EDR capacity. But a longer assembly than that (8’ in my case) will slosh condensate choking on the below capacity pipe on a long cycle before it finally heats all the way across.

EBEBRATT-Ed · December 20

Reducing elbows can sometime be used instead of eccentric couplings.

Its all about the velocity of the steam how it will interact with water. This is the same as headers, risers, mains and radiators

ethicalpaul · December 20

Yep, I have a reducing elbow on my setup on this new video going from horizontal to vertical out of the radiator, but I purposefully left the bushing in there to try to see if a problem would present itself

ChrisJ · December 20

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1828204#Comment_1828204

Wonder how much water a top fed 2 pipe radiator can hold?

And does the water banking up in it, act similar to a condenser in refrigeration I.E. the more liquid in it, the lower the capacity of it? Can forcing a top fed radiator to hold water actually reduce it's EDR in some practical / useful manner?

ethicalpaul · December 20

Do you want me to fill mine up and empty it into a bucket to see?

To your second question, definitely it does lower the EDR. Wait till my next video where I pitch it heavily the wrong way and aim my IR camera at it.

delcrossv · December 20

How to get drainage from a 1 pipe Baseray

Works!

Charlie from wmass · December 20

Other thought I have wanted to push was using radiator elbows instead of valves to provide the Union for removing a radiator.

ethicalpaul · December 23

I didn't know about those "radiator elbows" before, thanks Charlie. Those are for two-pipe radiators I take it? They are reasonably-priced

ethicalpaul · December 23

Here is the part 3 video, (link here to youtube so you can yell at me in the comments) showing my test two-pipe radiator with trap and extreme reverse pitch.

Spoiler alert, for two-pipe radiators, at least when they are fed from the top, you can stop worrying about the pitch. But will you? 😅

https://youtu.be/TmZApqtMr-U

109A_5 · December 23

Hello ethicalpaul,

Maybe like this for a one pipe test.

ethicalpaul · December 23

Thanks, that is very close to what I was thinking of, but I will run a tee under a radiator valve with the bottom of the tee running into the bucket. Nice drawing, you even duplicated my janky crate!

109A_5 · December 23

I purposely included a long level pipe so you could tip it to trap condensate as a hammer test. Since the hammer may be more from the pipes and not the radiator.

ethicalpaul · December 23

I like your thinking! But a pipe hammer test is a different video! 😊

109A_5 · December 23

Oh, my bad, I thought that is where this series started ? I'll review it.

ethicalpaul · December 23

no I mean the pipe hammer video is a possible future one. These ones are 2-pipe so far. It’s a process 😅

ChrisJ · December 23

Why does everyone think an appliance connector is CSST?

2-pipe Radiator Experiments, parts 1, 2, and now 3 with insane reverse pitch!!

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