1920’s home steam restoration
Hello there, (READ THIS PART FOR BACKSTORY OR SKIP DOWN FOR QUESTION) this is my first post on here. A few years ago I found myself doing a seasonal service/start of a steam boiler after our boiler guy had left us. I “serviced it” and started it… I was terrified of it and my lack of knowledge as it hammered the pump control and low water cutoff and could not stay online. I was doing the customer a dangerous disservice. I started fresh and began educating myself on here, ridiculous amounts of YouTube videos from teachers, techs, and manufacturers. Fast forward to modern day and I’m now a resource for low pressure steam questions and solutions. I have had a pretty good record of bringing systems on the brink back to reliable operation. in no way am I an expert but I admit my faults, learn from mistakes, educate myself and work constantly for improvement. In my area low pressure steam is pretty uncommon due to it being replaced from salesmen, neglect, or renovation. We do not really do residential but I was asked to take this call “Steam coming from basement”. It was a very nice 1920’s home downtown that had been restored. It has a two pipe gravity return setup. It turns out the pressuretrol on a pigtail off the sight glass was plugged and it blew the relief. I cleared it and began looking at everything. Boiler was nice and full of mud, pressuretrol at 9psi, and the sounds it all made was unbelievable. The home owner wanted to save his steam, make it safe and make it quiet. I cleaned the boiler out and skimmed it. The returns were pulled and flushed. I have replaced all the valves on the radiators (they thought they were steam vents they leaked so bad), cleaned some traps and replaced cage units as needed. I dropped the pressure to the bottom (3psi) and fired it yesterday. Even though I’m not complete on the job I was happy with the results of the tests and the homeowner was in disbelief of the noise reduction and heating with a much lower pressure. Tomorrow I get four more air vents, another cage unit, and a valve for a radiator i missed. Everything that I have replaced has been necessary on the road to recovery to get the job done.
-First question is… being this is a 1920’s two pipe should I just be 100% confident to put a vapor stat on the boiler? I like the range options of the 0-4psi vaporstat for the fear of the unknown. My gut says I should pull the trigger on the 0-16oz. I’m just worried to do this because it’s all new territory on this system. Their four kids are coming for Christmas soon and they want them to not even know the boiler is on.
-Second part is that I’m just looking for thoughts on… the longest steam main had one Gorton #1 on it. I reconfigured the pipe it was on and made provisions for 2 #1’s with potential for more if necessary. The second smaller main had a non operating hoffman #75 on it and for now it is getting swapped with a #1 with room for expansion if needed. The main condensate line had nothing. I located a capped 3/8” nipple sticking up out of a T about 5’ from where it drops to the boiler. I assumed this was probably at some point a vent so it is getting a #1 out of it. The #1 that was at the end of the main was capable of spraying plenty of mist until it was hot and the #75 did as well. In my thought process this was probably due to condensate shoved everywhere at 9psi confusion. With a huge pressure reduction, system component repairs, and additional venting… will the venting calm down?
I will do my best to answer questions on the system. I haven’t measured mains yet but everything looks to be pitched ok and no sags in piping.
Comments
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you should start by calculating the edr of the connected radiation and comparing it to the size if the boiler.
there should be no steam in the returns. that insane pressure likely trashed many steam traps and vents. it likely was also pushing steam in to the returns through a water seal at a drip or the equalizer.
is the near boiler piping correct?
unless there are places that pressure is used to lift condensate the vaporstat should be good although if the boiler is very oversized it might run pretty short cycles.
more venting doesn't hurt but it won't help beyond a certain point either, the steam has to heat the main to progress, if the venting keeps up with that, more won't make it heat faster.
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being this is a 1920’s two pipe should I just be 100% confident to put a vapor stat on the boiler? I like the range options of the 0-4psi vaporstat for the fear of the unknown.I started out similarly with my 1931 apt building and 2 pipe steam system. After help from this forum (adding vents, fixing traps, etc) I went from a vapotrol set at 6psi and a 0-30 pressure guage to a vaporstat and 0-5psi guage. The boiler runs up around 6-8 oz of pressure each cycle now.
This is from today, thermostat satisfied at 6oz
Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf
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Next time I’m there I’ll note the radiators and do the calculations (great thought). Yeah… that pressure, I wish I could upload the audio recording he made sitting on the couch. Near boiler piping is well… close. Height wise is good and it has a dual risers. Some things I would do differently if I was starting from scratch.
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i hope you turned the pressuretrol down as far as it goes. did it actually turn off at 9 psig especially with the cyclegard interrupting it?
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yes, it’s all the way down now, and yes it could steam up to 9.
Once there it hangs out while the system makes heads or tails of it. Eventually the noise subsides and things unevenly heat up. After most repairs completed and the control at the bottom of the scale there was much less noise, things evened out more, and even had steam in a radiator that hadn’t worked.0 -
The question of do you need a vapourstat and, if so, which range, is difficult — it wouldn't be if they were cheap, but they aren't.
Can you put a reliable low pressure gauge on the system? If so, do, and then observe how it behaves when you fire the system up. Hopefully if the boiler isn't too insanely oversize you will see the pressure rise, and then slightly stabilise for a while while the radiators get steam — then start to rise again. It's that more or less stabilise for a while that will tell you the presure you want to shut off at, specifically when it starts to rise again It's not likely to be much over a pound, but it could be less. Then you can decide whether a vapourstat is worth the money, and which one.
Do put a good big vent on that location on the dry return you found near the boiler. A Gorton #2 at least. If your analysis of the piping is correct, that's the main vent for all the radiators!
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Curious why your gauge glass looks full, or very dirty?
Is this boiler piped reasonably well?
Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.
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The picture of sight glass and pressure tool was a day 1 picture for records. The control is no longer there and sightglass is in better shape after flushing and skimming.
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tomorrow is the final push for this system in the quest for silence. It will be a long crawl dragging wrenches and fittings back here into the furthest portion of the crawl space. Lots of water in the main back here with not much fall and the 2-1/2x1-1/2 Hoover dam bushing.
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I see a couple mega press connections in the background of your most recent picture. Do those predate your work?
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Anvil does make eccentric reducers.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
or a reducing ell or put the reducer in the vertical tapping of the ell.
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or does the main continue and pitch toward a return at the end?
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yes they do.
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cleaned things up in the troubled area. Ended up rehanging a long stretch of main back to the proper fall. In testing it was about a 95% noise reduction. It has warmed up here a bit so it probably won’t run much through the week. Still did not get to calculate the radiators. On a side note these old fittings are awesome.
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Good question… This is the largest main covering 3/4 of the house. It was abated of asbestos and has no insulation other than fiberglass the near the boiler. I definitely do not know it all and every system I come across is in its own way different. This main leaves the boiler room near the ceiling, falls a proper slope all the way (now), runs it’s course and returns to near the boiler boiler piping dropping down into the equalizer above the water line with no steam trap.(which strikes me as odd/incorrect but seems original) I’ve been trying to find a schematic that reflects this but cannot. Condensate from the radiators on this main parallel the main slightly lower, drop down to near the floor and back up in a Hartford loop.
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(Edit: Meant to respond on this) I considered that but couldn’t go that route due to the excessive elevation drop that would cause.
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I considered that but couldn’t go that route due to the excessive elevation drop that would cause.
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Ok, so the far end does go to the return at the boiler. That means thar reducer isn't a problem because the condensate drains in the larger pipe away from it. The connection below the water line forms a water seal and keeps steam from travelling further in the pipe than to the vent as long as the pressure differential is low enough that it can't lift the water seal.
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This is a quick draw of the piping . Only one radiator was drawn on each main for simplicity.
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oh, it is 2 pipe. the end of the mains and the end of the returns should be below the water line. if the boiler was replaced and they became above the water line when that happened that is likely the source of your banging and possible inability to heat some radiators because that will allow steam to get in to the returns. or they can have a trap.
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Oddly enough it quieted way down and all the radiators heat up lightning fast (compared to when i started this). I believe mainly because it’s sloped all the way back now and the mains are vented. Still though the return piping of Main#1 hasn't set well with me and the condensate return of Main#2 entering below the Hartford loop doesn’t either. When the dust settles a bit and i have a game plan ill address this with homeowner.
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What do you mean? it is below the water line of the boiler side of the hartford loop instead of below the water line on the system side? not that it really matters if it immediately goes up to a dry return
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maybe this helps?
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Does the violet pipe go off to some corner of the basement somewhere or does it drop down from the end of a main at the boiler?
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It comes from the other side of the room (attached picture),goes down to the floor, runs across the floor, and rises up to where you see it in previous picture. Looking at the concrete the line use to be below grade.
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there is the floor run portion of it with the trap against my back.
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then it should connect on the system side of the hartford loop for the hartford loop to do its job. if it were just a foot or 2 of pipe at the boiler then it technically was wring but the boiler would only lose its water if that short piece broke. since there is a large section below the water line then it should be corrected (although there is like a 5 page thread you can read arguing for and against the hartford loop that you could read).
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Vaporstat should be in tomorrow. Figured if it doesn’t improve operation I will find it another home. The lowest vent at 59” above mid sight glass will really unload some water as it creeps above 2psi which i expect it would(vent on main #2 return). Correcting decades old issues on this has unleashed a lot of trash in system coming back to boiler. I can flush and skim and flush and skim and conditions are great and everything behaves. Then a couple days go by and it’s like a boiler full of water that looks like brown paint and behaves about like it. I’m mindful of excessive makeup water and only try to flush and skim when necessary. Also I know it shouldn’t by any means be clear water but it’s like you see chunks surging in the glass.
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I figured it did, and I don’t think it would be a terribly hard task to pipe it in with the other return a little later down the road.
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