LGB boiler pulling vacumm
hey everyone new to the page here. I’m a service tech out of Ann Arbor MI, I inherited a 2 pipe steam system. The house was built in 1915, my boiler is going over pressure while it runs up to at least 4 psi sometimes higher, then when the boiler turns off it pulls into a vacuum. (My boiler gauge reads psi and vacuum). The radiators in the house are all screaming hot, there are no steam traps installed just radiator L’s and the radiator valves have the old style handles. It sounds like I have an old vapor system. They have a Hoffman 75 at the end of the return line and an air vent on 1 radiator out of a few dozen. While running you can hear hissing air out and then sucking air in when it’s off. They have a normal pressuretrol operator and a Honeywell high limit, from what I’ve seen I should have a pressuretrol feeding it ounces not pounds. I’m not sure. What my next step should be and any help is appreciated. Thanks!
Comments
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the vacuum part is normal for all Steam systems. When the fire is gone the steam goes away replaced by a tiny amount of liquid water so a vacuum must result.
The pressuretrol should be set as low as possible. If you have a vapor system it should be even lower.
A pressuretrol doesn’t feed pressure, it just turns off the fire
NJ Steam Homeowner.
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I have the operator set as low as possible. (.5) is there any explanation on why it would go over that set amount of pressure? It is a new pressure trol as well and manifold to them is clean.
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The odds are pretty good that the pigtail from the boiler to the pressuretrol is clogged. I'd take it off and check the opening into the boiler (must be free and clear) and then I'd replace it with one of brass. Check the opening into the pressuretrol itself as well.
The fact that the system pulls a noticeable vacuum — while somewhat normal, as @ethicalpaul said, suggests to me rather strongly that the poor old Hoffman #75 main vent is shot. Operating under high pressure like that they don't last forever. I'd recommend replacing it with a Gorton #2. The odd vent on the radiator probably doesn't belong, but it may — or may not — need to be removed. We'll see.
Now. I wonder what type of vapour system we have here? Can you post a picture or two of the inlet valves on the radiators and of the outlet elbows? If possible clean them up enough so that any markings or tradenames are visible?
Also, are there any odd devices or hardware around where the dry return(s) finally drop to the wet return and the boiler? If you could manage a couple of photos which clearly show the piping arrangements of the steam header and near boiler piping, and of the return piping, that would help too.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
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the Hoffman was replaced yesterday with another No.75, it was a pretty extreme vacuum, when opened the boiler drain it was sucking in air
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Based on your post I would think that manual reset pressure device would be cutting out. It should probably be set higher, like 5 psi or whatever. The primary one should be the one that is facing away from camera and while not very accurate, should be cutting out well before your reported 4psi
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
it was usually set to 5. I turned it down to test it and it did cut off, the operator is set between .5 and 1 psi. I may need to add a vapor stat. I don’t have any photos of the radiators but can post some later.
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Whatever the vacuum is at shutdown is what it is, there's really no "extreme". It's harmless and completely expected.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el0 -
Are you quite sure that Hoffman was a 75 and not a 76? They look a lot alike, except the number — but the 76 seals on vacuum and, barring leaks anywhere else, will hold a pretty deep vacuum for quite a long time.
As @ethicalpaul said — harmless. In fact, in a good tight system if you've got the cash I'd often suggest a 76 — but oh dear they are pricey… and the ROI just isn't there with a modern small boiler.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
@EricSch1337 , there were several variations on these old Vapor systems. Can you post pics of a couple radiators with original shutoff valves, and close-ups of the valves and return fittings as well? Also include any names or emblems you find on them. This will tell us what we're looking at.
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
after more investigation I found that over the years they were removing the valves with the orfices and using steam radiator valves. Looks like that’s where we’ll start by getting the orifice valves back. 11 of the 17 radiators have been replaced with the “newer” radiator valves. Is anyone familiar with any kind of part number or valve name I should look for?
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Get your pressure down! @Steamhead will get you the information on the correct valves or orifices, but you have to get the pressure down.
To less than 8 OUNCES per square inch. Which means a low pressure gauge and a 0 to 16 ounce vapourstat for control.
You can do that right away and that will help — probably a lot.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
Looks like the typical mishmash. The one valve where you showed the top plate with the "L" on it was probably made by Lunkenheimer.
You have two ways to go. You can either get orifice plates from Tunstall and install them in the valve unions:
or you can replace all the valves with orificing types from MEPCO:
or
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting1 -
@steamhead is there an advantage to one over the other? And just to clarify I should remove all my existing valves and install one of these for all? I’m curious what the process of balancing entails?
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The radiators which still have the old valves can be left that way, assuming that the valves still more — which, with a little encouragement, they probably do. Just replace the ones with the regular valves.
Balancing one of these systems is really simple — since the regulating valves can be partially open, unlike one pipe. just adjust the valve on each radiator until you get what you want in that space. Again, unlike one pipe, there is very little interaction between radiators.
But I'll mention it again — don't even try until you get the pressure under control!
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
@Jamie Hall I’m already working on a quote for the homeowner to do just that and install a new vaporstat. I’m curious since this boiler has csd1 controls can I keep my secondary pressuretrol and set it at 5 psi like normal? Also you mentioned earlier to install a gorton #2 over the Hoffman 75. Other than price point is there a reason to choose one over the other? Thanks again for your feedback
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Yes keep the existing pressure control — I, at least, like to have two on anything much bigger than a teapot. One as a control device, and one as a safety. And 5 psig is fine.
I pick the Gorton #2 as it has much more capacity for venting than the Hoffman. I doubt that you'll need more than just the one.
But i do have to ask since we've gotten this far: are there crossover traps between the steam mains and the dry returns?
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
@Jamie Hall I couldn’t find any kind trap on the entire system. It does goes underground in the basement for maybe 10-12 feet. I checked with thermal imagining and it didn’t appear to be leaking. The exposed dry returns were all just pipes straight back to the boiler with the Hoffman at the end of the run. Should I add another vent where this tee is capped at?
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There has to be some way for air to get out of the mains. Usually that would have been a crossover trap — but those may have been removed (what's that thing for? Don't need it. Get rid of it!) at some time. The radiators will vent the mains into the dry returns, but things will be quicker if there are crossovers. Until we figure this out, though, don't add any more main vents than the one you have.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0
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