Help! Mystery pilot issue in greenhouse propane heater
Hi! Newbie in need of help/advice, so sorry about the length, but I didn't know what to cut. Some background: I've had a greenhouse for just over 20 years. For the first 10 or so I used propane. Propane became a hassle for various reasons, so then I used electric until I upgraded to a larger, better insulated greenhouse last summer. In January I got a new ventless propane heater (BTU output recommended based on surface area, insulation factor and area's low temps), new tank regulator, hose, etc. and got my 100 and 40lb tanks filled up. I'd built in adjustable fresh air ventilation on each end of the greenhouse (one at top, one a bottom) to allow for a higher BTU heater (Arkansas winters have become pretty brutal lately, with consecutive days, even weeks in single digit, sub-0 temps).
Pilot wouldn't stay lit. I checked for drafts, oxygen depletion (as best I could with a carbon monoxide sensor), leaks, so forth. Manufacturer wasn't helpful and only suggested maybe it was too much BTU and I'd probably need to leave the doors opened. Didn't make a lot of sense to me since it had ample fresh air and was only ever on the lowest heat setting, but I returned the heater and replaced it with a DynaGlo 12k BTU ventless propane wall heater (I purchased legs) and got that set up in February.
Same issue. As far as I could tell (I have smart temperature sensors and their app), heater was fine for a day or three, then on the afternoon/evening it would go through 3 or 4 cycles, then not come back on. Being a stubborn old woman, I sat and watched to catch it in the act. The pilot would simply snuff out 15-20 minutes after it cycled off. Never had a problem relighting.
So, I bought a second regulator, no go; tried various venting configurations, fans, I even used a fog machine to detect air movement and make sure there WAS plenty of airflow (even though DynaGlo manual states the room size for 12k would not be considered constricted); checked for leaks, obstructions, pilot/thermocouple positioning; googled for hours; called manufacturer (who was again no help since a licensed professional didn't install it). Finally returned that for same model.
Same issue. So now I'm thinking it's not the heater, or the regulator (had two new ones at this point). Called a professional. Apparently pressure on the "preset" regulator was too high, so he adjusted it. Used 5-6 weeks till end of season, no problems! (I was SO happy).
Fast forward to last month. Fill tanks, dust off heater, reconnect and check everything, fine for a week or so, then same issue, or I should say, same result (pilot out).
I videoed the normal pilot after burner cycle (attached); this was very similar to issue in February, where part of the flame at the tube would "disappear," then it would simply go out.
But instead of simply going out, it's like a high velocity something was acting on the pilot to the point where the flame "separated" from the pilot tube, and reappeared on the other side of the thermocouple (also attached); and there was a "high velocity" sound. I'm assuming the pilot goes out because the thermocouple isn't heated. It does this for approx 35-40 seconds before going out.
So, re-did most February's troubleshooting, (sans buying yet another tank regulator and using the fog machine), before calling same professionals as before. Different guy came out, admitted to not being too familiar with smaller setups. Said tank regulator had zero pressure, likely has ants in it. I noted there no evidence of ants (or debris of any kind) on the regulator or any where in the area (but what do I know). Opened the tank without the regulator to show me the tank had pressure -twice. Tried the second new regulator, said that had pressure. I saw analog gauge at 15, and assumed that was water columns, I asked if it needed to be adjusted to 11. He said you can't adjust them, they're sealed. I told him in February they resolved by adjusting the other one, but didn't fight him on it, figuring with my luck, it's not unreasonable to have a regulator with barely a couple hundred to just go "bad" (even though we'd just had the heater on before testing pressure). He said to watch and if it happens again, call him and he'd come out again a bring another regulator.
It did happen again, later that afternoon. Three cycles, then 20 minutes or so later, pilot would blow off. Finding it hard to believe a regulator with a couple hundred hours on it and another new regulator with maybe one hour on it were both bad, I called to see if same professionals could look up my ticket from February, blah blah. Finally got ahold of someone three days later, explained everything again, and he said he felt bad, but he didn't know what to tell me. They don't carry small heaters anymore because they have so many pilot issues technology has made them "too safe."
He said he'd look at videos if I'd send them, I did, but haven't heard back, suspect I won't.
I've since blown out the connection hose, took the front off the heater to see if something weird was blocking something. I ordered a manometer, since maybe this would be handy, and I still question the original regulator "going bad" after guy got there. When I went to check pressure on the original regulator, I find the gauge port appears to be sealed off on that one (pic attached, side question -is it? And if so, how do you check pressure without access to it?)
Before I give up and concede that physics are different at my house (entirely possible), and it's all been a waste of time, money and energy, I'm hoping someone might recognize my description and images of symptoms as something that makes sense. Could it be the tanks? The fuel itself? Something else?
Again sorry for length, and appreciate the opportunity to...um ..vent.
Comments
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Try this — it's a bit of a guess. Warm the regulator up — perhaps a hair dryer (don't overdo it!) and see if that makes a difference.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Ok, I'll certainly try anything at this point, but I have to ask, what does this do? It wouldn't resolve the issue, would it? It was in the mid 40s last time it happened, and I've never had any problems getting it going again. In fact, this afternoon after realizing I have no idea how to check pressure on the "dead, zero pressure" regulator I put it back on the tank and it fired right up! (Well, after I got the air out).
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Possibility of moisture in the tank is probably rare, but it can happen. If it is the propane coming out of the regulator can freeze…..at any temperature.
This is because propane in the tank is liquid and as it goes through the regulator it drops in pressure, and it is changing from a liquid to a gas it acts just like a refrigerant and can freeze a regulator.
It's a long shot like I said but can happen. The Propane Company usually puts an additive in the tank to prevent this.
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Thanks for that! Its worth a shot (regardless how long). The tanks weren't used for a number of years, and I did wonder about moisture at one point, but professionals I called said "no" (that was in February).
How do I go about having that checked out?
Don't know if it's relevant, but I used an air compressor to blow out the line this afternoon (disconnected from everything, of course), and it seemed more oily than I remember years back. I noticed this around the control knob on heater's gas valve too.
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Note @EBEBRATT-Ed 's comment. The hair dryer trick will thaw a frozen regulator. I might add that if the air is above freezing, also as noted by Ed, it may work just fine — for a few minutes or even hours on a low load until it gets cold enough to freeze. This can be very frustrating…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
The ventless heaters have a ODS pilot. ODS stands for Oxygen Depletion Sensor. They are designed for when folks install the heaters inside the living space and forget that they need to keep a window opened a bit to supply more oxygen to the room where the heating appliance is located. if you burn up all the oxygen in the room and the oxygen level drops from the normal 20%ish to about 18% the pilot flame gets too small to reach the thermocouple and the main burner shuts down.
Two things to check in your greenhouse.
- See if there is enough leakage in the structure to allow for infiltration of oxygen into the room.
- Clean the pilot burner. That was the biggest problem on those things with my customers. I would take a McDonalds plastic straw and blow out the dust from the pilot burner. Sometimes dust in the pilot burner intake would restrict the amount of combustion air into the actual pilot burner and that would make the actual pilot a little smaller.
I can imagine that there might be lots of pollen and dust floating around a greenhouse. Hope this helps.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@Jamie Hall I understand, and it does seem to happen mostly in near freezing temps (but not always -last night it was 47 out).
I watch for it to happen again and do the hair dryer. I noted before that I've never had a problem immediately relighting (when I caught it immediately), but last night I did. The pilot did that weird "high velocity" overshoot thing (wished I could upload video clip). The times I didn't have a problem relighting, could it have thawed that quick so that was possible? Does that make sense?
One thing I noticed a while back is after first cycle, each subsequent cycle starts and ends at lower and lower temps, then out.
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Yes, I'm fairly certain there's enough ventilation. I have a dryer duct near the bottom in the back (with ductwork so I can better control the draft), and a floor register vent near the top in the front. I didn't caulk the top of any panels. I ran a fog machine inside with and without small fans running (without the heater on) to see what kind of air movement there was.
As far as I know, it's never gone out while the burners are on. I would think depletion would be more likely then, rather than when just the pilot was on, but that's just a guess.
I've cleaned the pilot several times, though there's never been any obvious anything. The heater's only got a few months use.
Believe it or not, there really not much in the way of dust and pollen, mainly because of the humidity and watering. There's sometimes condensation inside (heater is protected from any drops by a plexiglass shield several feet above it, and it's well out of range from any watering activity). Maybe that's a factor now? It wasn't in previous years, but this is a different year, technology's different, idk, but it's driving me bonkers!
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I doubt there is a combustion air issue also. I believe your understanding of the combustion process and your most recent comment rules that out. So my first gut feeling about the ODS is probably not the issue. The next thing is to purchase a Manometer and connect it to the gas piping near the gas valve. Watch the gas pressure as the problem happens. that will tell you if it is a gas regulator issue or not. Back to Basics = the fire triangle = Fuel, Oxygen, Heat. If you remove one of the three you have no flame. We have established that you probably have oxygen. The flame's heat is self sustaining. So that leaves fuel. Since the fuel is an invisible gas, you need gauges to "see" it.
something like this
https://www.supplyhouse.com/DiversiTech-6-GPK035-Gas-Pressure-Test-Kit
you may find it on Craigs List or eBay for less.
EDIT: If you look for on on eBay take note that there are two standard ranges for that test kit. Natural gas can be measured with both ranges. LP Gas needs the higher range test kit that goes from 0 to 30 (or higher) inches water column.
since you are using LP Gas do no get the 0 to 10"WC gauge.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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@EdTheHeaterMan Thanks for that! I actually did get a manometer, but I don't know that I'm using it right, I got an error on one of the regulators and I have no idea how to test the other one (that supposedly had zero pressure when guy tested it, and ran the heater several hours last night). The gauge port looks sealed up?
Right now I'm using the hose that came with one of the regulators. I installed a shut-off and a flex hose between that and the heater, but I don't currently have any other test ports along the way. (I have new fittings and pipe for a more permanent set up, which I've had all summer to get in place, so I shouldn't use 'not knowing if this was permanent' as an excuse).
BUT, that brings me to question the hose - The first heater I got was a Mr. Heater, as was the regulator kit sold along side it. That heater didn't stay light, so I exchanged for one Dyna-Glo, then another, but didn't see any problem using the kit. (I should have been leery of upsell, but it seemed to check all the boxes). The hose has the 3/8 in required for the Dyna-Glo, etc. Dyna-Glo also calls for 1/2 in pipe, as a smaller diameter may cause "undue loss of pressure." A closer look at the hose this afternoon reveals it's 1/4 in.
Think that could be the issue all along? (Even though it didn't work with the Mr. Heater, and was sold for that model). Maybe that's why the cycles drop bit by bit and then poof?
PS - I think your tag After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next? is the story of my life 😅
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This is where you are going to take the pressure test from. If I understand your setup you have a 100 pound LP Cylinder, with a regulator that attaches to the tank, followed by some tubing that connects to the heating unit. You need to purchase a tee fitting and place it on the tube that connects to the heater. That may be a flare fitting or a FPT fitting or something else. Whatever fitting you have that connects to the heater, place the tee there that can accept the manometer fitting on the branch.
That way you can watch the gas pressure as the flame on the pilot drops out.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Thanks everyone! It's so nice to be working on this with someone!
Yes, I'm using a #100 (and a #40 when getting that filled). Heater is only draw, only max 12k BTU and never higher than first setting (so far). I have a shut off value at the end of tubing, then metal hose to the heater connection. I have several extra fittings and the pipe I need to get rid of the hose, not sure if I have on port on the extra heater fitting, though, if I don't, I'll go get one this morning!
(So I guess the port on the bottom regulator is just a dummy port? A port for dummies? lol)
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Ok, so, I couldn't find a tee fitting to connect directly to the heater, in fact I couldn't find any tee that had a test port so I had to build one. Nevertheless, the port is about 12 inches from the heater (12" x 3/8" flex) just before the shutoff valve, then there's the 12' x 1/4“ hose to the regulator.
Initially, with nothing on, pressure was 9.81" wc, stayed same after lighting pilot.
Under load first cycle it was 9.14-9.30 wc, then 9.95-10 with just pilot (it seemed to increase slightly when I move the heater back a few inches).
Second cycle 9.27-9.37, then 10.11 just pilot.
Turned heater completely off, 10.12, shut off gas, .072.
It was about 38° out. I was hooked to the 40lb (I swapped yesterday when I was trying to test regulators because I thought 100lb was getting low).
Note too - this is using the regulator the $175 tech said was zero pressure bad (I still want to understand how he tested it when the port he connected the gauge to is sealed). This is also the adjustable regulator (which he said none where).
The heater manual says: Manifold 10" wc; inlet min 11" wc* (for purposes of input adjustment), max 14" wc
So, get 1/2" connections installed and /or tweak regulator, test again, run heat few days, then celebrate? 🙏
(I'm holding my breath y'all aren't going to tell me the pressure difference is negligible.)
Thanks again!
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without seeing the regulator i'm guessing the port on the bottom is the vent connection, it references the diaphragm to atmospheric pressure and if the regulator is someplace where the diaphragm leaking would be dangerous, it has to be piped outdoors
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