All the new problems/Weil-Mclain
IIn 2021 had my old steam boiler replaced with peg40 series 5, and its been nothing but problems. I'm not a plumber. But i know something is very wrong with this system. My guess is install wrong. The original boiler was 50+ years old. It consisted of 2 risers that went straight into each feed, and 2 returns that went under a air release valve then dropped into the bottom of the boiler.
Problems, excessive banging, gurgling sounds in pipes and radiators, water discharging from the old main steam vent. Water in the site glass disappears when it gets up to temp. The emergency blow off valve has bypass water coming out of it. The way it has been plumbed is considerably different then the original configuration. I think it is pushing pressure on both sides in this configuration. Also the installation manual shows this model is recommended 2 1/2" riser piping but 2" is what was installed. Will 1" make a difference?
A permit was pulled for the job, but of course no one came out to inspect it. The company who did the work is a very large company and there google reviews were decent, hence why i went with them.
Comments
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II forgot that, it was skimmed several times, they open up that cleanout, dumped some powder in, and opened up the side discharge to try an get the oil out. He said the oil n dirt was from manufacturing processes. And all the pipe they added was very oily
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Probably needs more skimming.
Also, situations like this is why drop headers were invented.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
Hello NoHeat77,
Are those counter flow mains or did the pitch change with the new boiler? No drips if counter flow.
"emergency blow off valve has bypass water coming out of it."
Pigtail plugged, pressure too high ? Or the pressure relief is just leaking or the wrong valve.
I'm surprised the main extensions are not vented and dripped independently, but I don't think that would cause your complaints.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System
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At least they got the right sequence of things along the header…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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Need to get a level on some of that piping. Could be water pooling somewhere
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Most of the supply and header looks ok if the pipe size is correct. Gas line is a mess. The whole thing is a bit sloppy.
Probably needs skimming and if you have two returns coming back to the boiler they should drop down individually and tie together below the water line. (cant tell from pictures.)
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II dont know what a counter flow is?
The original boiler had 2 feeds the went straight vertical into the feeds at each end of the house.
The returns both come down from each end of the house and enter a T fitting that drops down into the boiler, that large pressure or steam relief valve is above that tee
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TThe returns enter a T fitting then drop down into water fill plumbing that is then redirected into the boiler.
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Those return lines are exceptionally small for this size boiler. It appears that the single horizontal line that runs along the floor (after the two enter the T fitting) is only 1". I would take this section apart and look for accumulated debris and rust in that section. It wouldn't take much to prevent condensate from returning quickly and this would be evident by the boiler water level dropping precipitously during operation.
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Have to answer the question from @109A_5. You pictures may be deceiving but in the 2nd picture for instance, that long main going from the boiler to the wall should 1) have no sags that could collect water and 2) more than likely should be parallel flow meaning it should be highest at the boiler and then pitch downward at least 1" per 20ft toward the wall. If it pitches the other way (rising as it goes away from the boiler) it would be counterflow meaning the condensate has to flow back counter to the direction of the steam travel and then there should be a drip from the main closer to the boiler so it does not run into the vertically rising steam in the risers. Take a good look at it and tell us what you thing you have. Can't see the other main well in any of the pictures.
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What size is the header compared to what the manual specifies? It looks like it is smaller than the risers out of the boiler and usually it should be bigger so that water and steam can separate. If the pipe sizes are too small it will not work even if you get the water free of oil.
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is this 2 pipe?
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How was the boiler sized? If it's oversized that wouldn't be the primary problem, but could contribute.
The header piping actually exceeds manufacturers spec, somewhat.
For a primary cause, I'm going with previous posters that you have a slope issues. In the picture I circled in red what should the the highest points in the piping, everything should slope downwards from that point until the drop to return. There also should not be any sags at all. You'll have to verify that, but loosely based on the this and other pictures, it doesn't look like it. If it's not, it's probably a mistake by the installer since they touched those pipes and I can see some new "hangers" they installed.
Also, the returns are not supposed to be tied above the water line with a tee like they are. That would be an existing mistake that predates the boiler replacement, that said the installer should have recommended that fix.
I'm not a fan of chemicals for cleaning, proper skimming is just fine by itself. I'd suggest you need more skimming.
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TThe fittings say 2" so i assume the pipe is 2 ".
The manual says this unit is recommended for 2 & half inch pipe. Thats why i said i didnt know if a half inch X 2 pipes making a total of 1" of volume combined would make a difference. This system tyes into the old system which has smaller lines. And i think now after really studying it, one of the return lines has moved falling away from the boiler.
Also the old system never registered any pressure, this new system has pressure spikes. Ive seen it go up to nealy 5lbs, yet the cutoff is around 1.5lbs.
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SSo you circled the feed lines, if they sloped downwards from that point, water would pool in the lowest point ? It roughly 20ft from where you circled to where they make a 90° and go vertical. Wouldn't the initial steam turn back into water when it hits the cold pipes
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Hello NoHeat77,
Your mains at the boiler seem to be lower than the returns, I wonder if it was that way with the old boiler.
Is this a one pipe or two pipe system ? How many pipes are connected to each radiator ? Does each radiator have a air vent valve at one end and only one pipe at the other end ?
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
YYes the old boiler didn't have any manifold, it was straight pipe from boiler into the feeds,
Every radiator has 2 lines, 1hot at top and 1 cold at the bottom. Originally no radiators had any air vents, sometime ago a vent was added to a 1, im not sure why it was put in.
YYes even with the old system the feeds in vicinity with the return were lower then the return. Now the old boiler was in size much smaller then the new unit in respect to height. So the feed risers were longer. But in terms of BTU power the new system is basically equal maybe a little higher rating.
One way or another, i think after reading comments the returns ain't bringing water back fast enough, their was once a overfill issue with the automatic filler, so they replaced that said it was likely a bad unit brand new. Does anybody know if weil McClain has there own experts that they send out? They literally had 10 guys here to install this unit all except 1 were young guys without hands on experience. And the guy who did installation said he just learned through installing commercial steam.
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Thats why i said i didnt know if a half inch X 2 pipes making a total of 1" of volume combined would make a difference
It's not 1" of volume combined.
a 2" pipe has an internal area of pi * r ^ 2 (3.1416 * 1 ^ 1) which equals 3.1416 sq inches
a 2-1/2" pipe has an internal area of 4.909 sq inches
But you might find things work OK even with these undersized pipes if your water quality is good.
NJ Steam Homeowner.
Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el1 -
Excessive banging or hammering is the condensate not being managed correctly and the steam movement is slamming a slug of water into something. Pipes improperly pitched can cause this issue since the water sitting where is should not be sitting.
Since you asked;
Counter flow is when the condensate flows in the opposite direction to the steam.
Parallel flow is when the condensate flows in the same direction as the steam.
If the pipe pitch changed and/or the condensate is sitting differently with the boiler change that may be causing the issues. Gurgling in the pipes sound like water is sitting where is should not be, the pipe pitch has changed and is wrong.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
YYeah after all the comments i think the return line is out of whack, i think the 2 coming into 1 at a T then dropping down is a issue. All of the return lines from each radiator are vertical until they reach the basement. I also read in the installation manual a test should have been done that measured time from steam till return. And depending upon that time the equalizer might need to be larger and acts as a reservoir.
Im thinking I'll just have the return in the basement separated into 2 with new pipe
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Show us a radiator. do they have steam traps? did the old boiler have a pressuretrol or vaporstat? you need a low pressure gauge to know the actual pressure, the 0-30 psig gauge that is required by code isn't accurate at a couple psig.
the 2.5" spec for the header is to slow down the steam so the water can fall out of it, the larger diameter slows the steam but i don't think this is your problem.
i suspect either you have bad steam traps, or it is a vapor system and they didn't use a vaporstat to keep the pressure very low and probably oversized the boiler, or they lowered the water line such that some water seal is no longer filled with water.
It is very likely you have steam in your returns because of one or more of the above issues.
wm could send out someone in extreme cases. where are you, there are steam experts in a lot of areas that people here know of.
the overfilling was likely because of the water leaving the boiler then the auto feeder coming on while the water was gone then it was overfilled when the water returned.
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The fact that someone added a vent to a radiator shows that you have some sort of a system problem. It should be venting through the return. Either you have steam in a return, bad venting on the return or main or, water trapped in the return so it can't vent.
Those returns that tie together are dry returns and shouldn't have steam in them, they can tie together above the water line. Drips from the mains have to tie in below the water line. can you show us what happens ate the ends of the mains?
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I think you need to focus on what the new boiler changed, it may just need more skimming. Is there stuff at the top of the water line in the sight glass, the picture was poor in that regard.
It worked with the old boiler although the piping may not have been optimal.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
This is looking like a configuration issue, and things were tried previously by people who didn't know what they were doing. Where are you located? The whole system needs to be evaluated on site.
For 2 pipe to work, a lot of things : pitch, pressure, traps, return layout all need to be correct.
Try the Find a contractor feature. We can give opinions, but it's no substitute for an expert review with everything in front of them.
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0
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