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Single pipe steam. Inlet side hot. Vent side cold. Should radiator fins all heat up at same time?

Single pipe steam.
Turned the thermostat heat up to 80*F.
Ran the boiler for 20 mins. then checked each radiator.

In general, on most radiators, the inlet side was hot, and the vent side was still cold.
How long should it take for the heat to reach the last fin next to the vent?

After 20 mins, I then turned off the heat. Did I need to wait longer?

BR #1: Inlet side hot. Vent side cold. Vent quiet.
BR #2: Inlet side hissing/sputtering. Inlet side hot. Vent side hot. Vent quiet.
BR #3: Inlet side warm. Vent side very cold. Vent hissing.
LR: Inlet side hot. Vent side very cold. Vent quiet.
DR: Inlet side hot. Vent side barely warm. Vent hissing.
Kitchen: Radiator encased by kitchen nook bench. I feel heat coming out.

I also checked the main vent in the basement.
Main pipe was hot before and after the main vent riser, which was also hot.
So, I think main vent is working?

Video:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fUElS_m0TpL7A70b6Dag-QdvXb0bFSU0/view

Comments

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057
    edited October 15

    Here are my thoughts:

    • 20 minutes isn't very long from a cold start. It takes time to heat the water to boiling. It might take around an hour for the whole radiator to get hot
    • The pipe side definitely should get hot first
    • The heat will travel across to the vent side depending on the speed and condition of the vent
    • You shouldn't hear any gurgling, it can be a sign of water trapped in a poorly-pitched pipe, or broken valve
    • Some vents will be silent. You really should only hear a slight, gentle hissing sound of air escaping. Sputtering isn't good, but might not be too big a deal…it might just be a little condensate in the vent.
    • You want to check the main vent during that first 20 minutes to see if it is letting out air and then not letting out steam

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,638
    edited October 15

    Sounds like you may need some new vents. Also you may need some boiler room maintenance.

    To be clear about how the radiators actually heat. if you have a cold start, that means everything is room temperature, the boiler and pipes and radiators above the water line will be filled with AIR. Air and steam don't mix. If you could see it in a bottle, and the steam was Red and the air was Blue, it would look like a Red gas (the steam) would have a line where the Steam ends and the air, a Blue gas, starts. Just like vegetable Oil and tap Water in a glass are separate.

    Now you start the burner and put your hand on the header pipe where it exits the boiler. It will stay cool to the touch until the boiler starts to make steam. Then you will feel a rapid change in temperature as the steam reaches that point in the piping. Now move quickly down the main pipe away from the boiler and feel that pipe. Cool to the touch while it is pushing air out of the way. Then very hot when the steam gets to that point. Quickly move further down the pipe and feel the cool pipe and then it becomes a hot pipe.

    This keeps happening until all the air is out of the pipes and radiators. If your vents are not letting the air out at a balanced rate, so each room gets heated at about the same time, then your vents need to be changed to vents that will let the air out slower on the radiators that get hot too fast and let the air out faster on the radiators the don't get hot fast enough.

    That is easier said than done in some homes, on some systems. 

    Wait a little longer to see if everything works itself out.

    Another thing to remember is that most steam systems were installed when Coal was King in the heating industry. Coal boilers did not have thermostats. They had people that put coal in then by hand. So the fire did not turn on and off like a gas or oil burner does today. The heat was always on. More in the winter because you might put 3 shovel fulls in the boiler every few hours. Less in the spring and fall, because you might even let the flame actually die out in the afternoon so the house doesn't overheat. You learned how to keep up with the weather when you operated a coal fired boiler.


    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    My concern with replacing the radiator vents is what if they break off? Then the entire heating system is not usable at all due to the steam spewing out of the broken vent hole. Is replacing old radiator vents best left to a professional? Makes me feel stupid as I've been working on cars for years and have a garage full of tools. LOL.

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057

    I haven't had one break off that I couldn't get out. If you're a car guy you should be OK but if in doubt, call a pro. It's certainly easier than a bolt breaking off in a head. Even not a very good plumber should be able to handle it. You might have to tell them which brand of vent to use, or buy it yourself and have them install it so they don't buy some garbage.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    Is it a cold start for tankless coil? Regardless, the inlet side was very hot. How long should it take for the steam to reach the other side of the radiator? A few seconds, a few minutes, an hour? How long does vent side stay cold until I know something is wrong?

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    Is there a brand of vent I should get? Variable vent?

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057

    Let me quote myself:

    It might take around an hour for the whole radiator to get hot

    As long as sections of the radiator are getting hot, nothing is wrong. How fast they get hot is up to the vent.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    To clarify, if the vents were stuck closed, would NONE of the radiator get hot? Are you saying that since the inlet side fins are hot, this implies the vents are not stuck closed, but are simply just venting slowly? If the vent was totally stuck closed, the steam would never reach the inlet side fins in the first place?

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057
    edited October 15

    Yes, if the vent was failed completely closed, even the air in the supply pipe (runout) wouldn't get out of the way to let steam by.

    People turn a vent upside-down which for most vents makes them close, to "shut off" a radiator

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,164

    Pretty much. You might get a little heat on the inlet pipe, and a few — maybe two or three — sections — at the end of a really long run when the pressure got to 2 pounds or so.

    And as has been said, 20 minutes from a cold start it just getting going. Give it a little time.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,234

    @CoachBoilermaker , are the hotter rads (BR #2, for example) located closer to the boiler?

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • RTW
    RTW Member Posts: 87

    Wouldnt hurt to first: 1) boil the vents in white vinegar for about five (5) minutes and see if that resolves issues before spending significant amount of money on replacing all vents, 2) It's a good idea to periodically boil vents anyway as preventive maintenance. Lastly, I have one pipe steam that works excellent mainly due to routine annual maintenance ( by qualified tech) and occasional inspections / boiling of vents

    Regards,

    RTW

  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 2,115

    Get an 1/8" easy-out and 1/4" drill and tap set and some 1/4"-1/8" black bushings. Just in case.

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057

    ☝️☝️☝️ All those taps above should be NPT I'm sure @STEAM DOCTOR implied

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    The frustrating part about internet research is when you get conflicting information.

    On another thread, I see this: Keep in mind that the pipe end of the radiator will show heat before the vent end. In a matter of minutes, they should even out.

    vs.

    It might take around an hour for the whole radiator to get hot

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057
    edited October 15

    <shrug> my radiators do not even out. The heat travels across them during a call for heat and it takes some time to do that. As I said, it depends on the venting.

    Here's a faster one than mine. You can time yours.

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • Grallert
    Grallert Member Posts: 718

    The goal is not to heat the radiators up completely. The goal is to satisfy the thermostat. So if you were to set the thermostat to 70 will the space reach that set point? There might be a number of things happening or nothing at all. I would set the thermostat to a temperature you want like 68 or 70 and let it rip. This could take some time to take the curse off the radiators. You might find that not all the sections of all the radiators get hot before the thermostat is satisficed. That's ok. You then might find that on a design day all the sections on all the rads do heat up.

    Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager,teacher and dog walker
    delcrossvbburd
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 901
    edited October 15

    BR#2 needs the packing nut on the valve tightened (a little). Just until the hissing stops.

    BR#3 and DR may need a faster vent.

    Vents should be hand snug. Careful use of teflon tape (dont get any in port to vent) is recommended.

    On startup (pipe cold) check to see if main vent is emitting air. Once the pipe is hot the vent should be closed.

    As @Grallert says:

    The goal is not to heat the radiators up completely. The goal is to satisfy the thermostat. 

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    So that video is 10 minutes to fully heat across the radiator.

    Mine was on for 20-25 mins. and not even close to the video progress.

    And he says, "We need a new 1A", implying the radiator is not even working correctly.

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110
    edited October 15

    Understood. I set my thermostat to 80*F.

    After 20-25 mins. some of the vent side fins were cold to the touch.

    Wouldn't the goal also be to heat all fins, actually, to help reach the 80*F target, which was not attained yet

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    Your radiators never even out, despite having new vents, I assume?

    How can this happen if steam is what causes the vent to close.

    This implies steam has reached the very last vent fin.

    Are you sure your vents are working?

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 6,057

    Sorry, I meant they don't "even out" without filling with steam. If they completely fill with steam, yes they even out at full heat.

    I'm sure my vents are working 🙃

    NJ Steam Homeowner.
    Free NJ and remote steam advice: https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/new-jersey-steam-help/
    See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,143
    edited October 15

    On a typical winter day all of mine will get heat to the inlet valves of the radiators (pipe side) within 3-4 minutes and they all start heating within a few seconds of eachother. In extreme cold they get steam in 90 seconds. This balancing took a lot of effort, but it is possible. On a cold start 20 minutes is normal.

    The radiators will not get the vents hot in less than 30-40 minutes of constant running. Most of the time my vents are room temperature and only a few sections heat. Even on really cold days the vent side bottom of my radiators will tend to be cool.

    This cheesy picture shows the area that tends not to heat on mine during normal use even on really cold days. It just never runs long enough to work that last bit of air out.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    ethicalpaul
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,234

    @CoachBoilermaker , some radiators will behave like that if there were made without push-nipple connections at the top of the radiator sections. This does confuse some folks. Post some pics of your rads so we can have a look.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 110

    Once your inlet fin gets hot, how long does it take for the other side vent fin to get hot?

    1 minute? 20 minutes? 1 hour?

  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,768

    There is no predicted time, so the answer is, the appropriate amount for how your system is set up. That could be minutes, an hour, or never.

    It’s akin to asking how big is a box.

    There are tons of variables that influence it. Boiler output to system size, vent size, main venting size, style of radiator, size of radiator.

    I have a boiler that is sized to radiation with zero pickup so mine heat really slowly, slower typically equates to greater comfort as it flattens out the swings between firings. If you have an oversized boiler with higher output it might go faster, or if it’s drastically oversized and bangs off the pressure safety like crazy it could go slower.

    And finally, I’ve done a lot with my system and quite intimate with it, I couldn’t tell you how long mine take because I’ve simply never timed them. I can’t really think of a reason it matters. I have aggressive main venting to fill the mains first, that takes about 3 minutes on a warm system. After that all the radiators have steams available to them and heat at the rate needed to keep a particular room at the temperature I desire. Some are much faster than others, in general the upstairs goes slower to keep it cooler which is what the family likes. My master bedroom is 8 sections and I’m not sure if the 4th section has heated…ever. I just don’t need heat there so it’s set up to go very slow. When it’s mild I don’t think it ever heats past the first section.

    You are trying to satisfy the thermostat not fill radiators. Adjust venting to make things even as you want and satisfy the thermostat. As Chris said above, his radiators are oversized for his house so fully filling them would overheat the house, even when it’s at or below design temp.

    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    bburd
  • mattmich
    mattmich Member Posts: 88

    Unless it's brutally cold outside, my radiators provide enough heat when partially warm to satisfy the thermostat. When it's negative degrees out, that's when everything gets hot, and until then, pressure won't come into it. As long as you have steam condensing somewhere in the system, there won't be even a pound of pressure.

    I have a large radiator (~50 sq ft) early on the main, and even a Maidomist #4 (smallest orifice available) is too big. That radiator gets really hot before any heat reaches the later ones. I put a toothpick in the vent hole and the next cycle, not even the inlet got hot. That's how sensitive radiators are to venting.

    FWIW I bought a Varivent so I can hopefully balance better. I'm not really doing much until it gets cold so I can have realistic conditions.

    cheers -m