Lochinvar / Knight Boiler 80-285 Issues
Comments
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Let me step back a notch. You have domestic hot water, and the boiler fires up OK for that? Is that what I'm reading, in a nutshell?
If that is true, then there is nothing about the boiler or burner itself which is malfunctioning, so stop thinking about that.
Is it true that when you turn up the call for heat, the boiler does not fire. Does the circulating pump for the heating system turn on and run? Is there a zone valve? Does it open?
If the zone valve opens, if you have one, the signal from the thermostat is getting through. Otherwise it isn't, and that needs to be fixed.
Now put a jumper between R and W on the two contacts labelled "Room Thermostat Contol". What should happen, at the least, is that the circulating pump should start. If it does, you're good so far. If it doesn't, find the connections for the circulating pump and measure the voltage. If it's 120 volts, there's a problem either in the pump itself or in the wiring to the pump. If it isn't… there's a problem in the control board.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
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I"ll let you in on a little secret, but don't tell anybody. I worked on a Lochinvar Knight and it drove me bonkers. It kept giving me a fault for an open gas pressure switch which it didn't have. I tried everything. I would get it working and leave only to come back in a day or so to fix it again. I knew there was a problem on the connection board or the computer board. I traced it to the ribbon cable on the connection board. But, you can't buy one, you have to buy the whole board to get the cable. The cable has a Molex plug on the other end where it plugs into the computer board. The Molex fitting in the plastic plug, there are 13 of them on that ribbon cable, has a gap on them where those jacks fit on the computer board pins. The gap on the jack for the open gas pressure switch widened and was making intermittent contact with the pin. I took a hefty sewing needle and pushed it between the jack and the plastic plug for each jack to close the gap. That solved the problem.
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Got to love those connectors…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
if zone valve is open, lever freely moves back and forth as mentioned early in thread, you should have 0 volts across 1&2.
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today is troubleshooting day.."training day"
I will say this is all very confusing. I have replaced one of the pumps and that didn't help.
couple things: could it be as simple as "air in the lines" preventing water from flowing as it should?
one other notable observation. My friend arrived last wednesday night (10 days ago) and stayed in one of the spare rooms. when i woke up it was irregularly cold in the house. i came to find he had the window open in that room. when i asked him why he had the window open he said it was too warm in the bedroom for him (the heat register is right under the bed—against the wall—indicating the heat WAS likely working that night). So he slept with the window open. Since then, although maybe coincidental, i have no more heat. It was the following morning, when it was cold AGAIN, when i woke up when i figured we had an issue—as I complained to my friend for making it cold in my house by leaving the window open again. My friend indicated to me that that in fact he did not leave the window open for that second consecutive night, i had only assumed so as it was cold in the house in the morning just like the previous morning when he had left the window open…
if that makes any sense!😅
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could there be an issue with the control board or "motherbooard" or electrical issue though? please excuse me if this is a dumb question. I want believe it is a water flow issue as any board level issue or boiler issue is likely going to break the bank. so i want to agree with you and i respect your opinion and i believe you are right but i can't take anything off the table just yet…😥
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"The hot water heater appears to still be producing hot water which gets its heat from the boiler installed right next to the water tank. But, the baseboard heating is not giving off any heat…hence the cold house."
Nothing unusual about this. There are two separate sys. House heating and hot water heating. Hot water heating works and house heating is intermittent as you stated with your friend's comments. There can be many problems that can cause this.
Sorry to say, this is beyond your capability to fix, regardless of the help you get here. You need a professional to come in and make a diagnosis. Have him check the combustion chamber, too, it may need cleaning.
I would get rid of that old thermostat and replace it with a newer one, but not an internet type. You can take the cover off of the old one and jump the two thermostat wire coming from the boiler and see if that causes the heat from the boiler to increase the heat in the rooms.
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i agree, i don't think i am able to fix this issue. i am only trying to be as informed as possible…as a technician in the IT field, I know that MOST issues have an easy resolve and solutions can be easily overlooked. i have been reaching out to friends and local contacts in the area trying to find help..so i am not entirely relying on this thread..at a minimum this thread is acting as a place to gather opinions and share notes.
are you saying a dirty combustion chamber might be the cause of this issue or are you just making a recommendation here?
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Let me try again. Your hot water is heated by your boiler. Yes? Your hot water is hot. Yes? Then your boiler is functioning. Yes? Then your problem is NOT your boiler, nor the immediate boiler controls (the ones that control whether the burner burns). Yes?
Now find out why the rest of the house system doesn't turn on the boiler and circulate the hot water (except when someone leaves a window open). Stop chasing the boiler.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
water gets hot and replenishes without issue…yes i am in full agreeance with you…so if it's not the boiler than it is a water flow issue…i may replace the other circ pump today and see what happens?
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i don't know how the hot water is heated…haha
i know we have a hot water heater installed right next to the boiler….from what i understand—potentially—the water is heated by the boiler and then deposited into the water heater to stay warm…please forgive as i am dumb to the intricacies of the heater / boiling system.
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no shortage of DHW here..to be clear.
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You need outside help. Where are you? We might know someone.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
it's worth a shot..Anchorage, AK…
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Funny. Someone just the other day was having a problem in Anchorage, and a name was mentioned. I forget, however, who it was.
Now. In your first post you said "The hot water heater appears to still be producing hot water which gets its heat from the boiler installed right next to the water tank. But, the baseboard heating is not giving off any heat…hence the cold house." and the picture of your water heater shows a SuperstorUltra. Which is what is called an indirect hot water heater — that is, it stores hot water, but it s heated by a boiler — in this case your heating boiler. So it is fair to assume that the boiler does run to make hot water. Is that true? Can you hear or see the boiler run to make hot water?
If you can, your problem is NOT the boiler. It is either in whatever asks the boiler to run for heat — thermostat or whatever — or the pump to run to circulate the hot water the boiler makes.
Now I see three circulating pumps in one of the pictures. At least two of them must run to heat the house. Which one, or ones, runs when the system is heating the hot water and the boiler is running for that? Do any of them run when you turn the thermostat for heating the house up all the way? Which ones?
Would it be possible for you to draw — and post — a diagram of the piping in the system — including the how water heater — showing all the valves and pumps and, if possible, flow direction through the pumps?
Also, since I think you said you are an IT guy, the complete wiring for the thermostat and any connected valves or other switches or pumps and controls?
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
How many thermostats do you have? One, I expect. The lower red Grundfos pump is the DHW pump. You have hot water that works. The mid red Grundfos pump is the Boiler pump. The top green pump is the Taco system pump. The boiler and the system pumps run at the same time when the thermostat calls for heat. The thermostat energizes the zone valve. The zone valve turns on the boiler and the boiler turns on the boiler and sys pumps. The way a primary and secondary piping sys works is as follows: I think?
I may be seeing it wrong and need more pics of the piping from a different angle. Why is the zone valve on the Boiler loop? (not sure about that) The green pump has a cartridge in that may be restricted with debris or the Zv may not function properly. The thermostat or it's wiring may be defective. The red pump can be taken apart and cleaned, the green pump can not, you must replace the pump or the cartridge must be replaced.
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two thermostats, two zone valves…i have tested the zone valves and they seem to be working…
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that picture where you have 120v on the line and system, and DO NOT have 120v on boiler and Domestic,
did you pull the black and white from the boiler terminals and see if 120 comes back or not, trying to see if that relay is shot or not.(I think it is)
and while you have black and white off the terminals, ohm out the black and white thru the circulator, how many ohms there? 40ish?
known to beat dead horses1 -
OK, I see the other ZV, it was hidden by the double check valve. Is the boiler in the basement or 1st floor?
What happens when you close that valve in the white circle? I can't see how that's piped. Is the bedroom where your friend slept on a zone that is different than the one giving you trouble or the same zone? The reason that I asked is that most of the water travels thru the shortest zone. The path of least resistance.
Does your baseboards have a coin vent on one end of the heating element? I guess that valve is a shut off valve for that zone.
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let me try this..thank you
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boiler is on the ground / bottom floor
just based on observations i've made, your flow pattern seems correct..(from your annotated photo)…
boiler is on the bottom floor / 1st floor..here is closer pics of the valve with the white circle..
also, my heat registers do not have any valves on or coin vents i don't think
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hopefully not all the fin tube looks like this?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
definetly not. This is the roughest one by far.
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You can straighten the fins with a 1" putty knife. What zone was your friend too hot? Is it the same zone that you're have the trouble? One zone for the first flr and one zone for the second flr? Second flr is the trouble no heat zone?
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none of my zones are working. No heat to any of the registers in the house.
Also, I had a pro come by today and he recommends replacing the green circ pump up near the ceiling citing that it's getting power from the terminals but doesn't seem to be functional.
So I will get the Taco 007 pump replaced and keep my fingers crossed!!
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Go with a Grundfos UPS15-58 three speed.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Grundfos-59896341-UPS15-58FC-3-Speed-Circulator-Pump-1-25-HP-115-volt-4701000-p
So, if there isn't any heat how did your friend sleeping in your house get overheated to the point of opening a window?
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my point was the heat did work that night..as he became too warm from the house heat so he opened the window…the following day is when the heat apparently stopped working
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Taco pumps have a cartridge in them that is sealed. I have had these cartridges bind up because of debris that gets lodged in them. That could be your case. The starting torque is small in these pumps and as the rotation builds the momentum of the impeller increases which may be why your friend had heat. The cartridge just released and started rotating creating hot water circulation.
I would drain down the water level in the sys to below the pump and then remove the 4 allen screws holding the the pump body onto the volute and inspect the impeller before replacing the pump. Is there debris (solder balls, etc) in the plastic impeller—does the impeller rotate freely without dragging. If your pump is an IFC (internal flow check) with a plastic check valve in the volute, is it functioning properly?
The Grundfos UPS 26-99 FC is a really large boiler pump. Correct speed?
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I don’t suppose you can provide any guidance about how I might be able to answer this question? Is there something I need to do to re-initialize this feature? Or…? I mean I have gotten absolutely no where chasing the rabbit holes here from this thread..I am starting to understand some of the nuances of this “electronic boiler” system and understand the acronyms like “SH” space heating, DHW…things make a little more sense than they did when i originally made this post..
But one thing for sure is something is preventing the hot water from flowing to the “loops”
😅0 -
You do have a outdoor sensor. If you look at the photo of the control board you will see two wires connected to the terminals called outdoor sensor. From the rest of your photos you show target temperatures of 122F and 129f and other photos that show boiler setpoint met. This shows to me that the boiler is working properly but the setpoint is set too low to heat your house to your desired temperature. You could have a defective outdoor sensor or the temperature values set too low. If it was my house a setpoint of 122f would not heat my house in the winter. I also use outdoor reset but that value is overridden after a period of time if the house is not up to temperature. I have set 180f as the maximum boiler temp.
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