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odd flushing toilet

GW
GW Member Posts: 4,887

Never thought i would get jammed on a toilet- but here I am.

I have an apartment with a modern 1.6 gal, 17" tall, elongated toilet, American Standard Cadet Pro 3 i think it is.

First flush is super lame, no flush, bowl just fills a bit. Then, the Tank fills and the second flush is almost good as normal.

I ran an auger, but nothing

Something in the rim?

Thanks

Gary Wilson
Wilson Services, Inc
Northampton, MA
gary@wilsonph.com
«1

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,190

    Beats me. But when you find out what it was, let us know — I have one of those, too.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 792

    Is the water level in the bowl and the tank the same for both flushes?

    How about a third flush? What's it like?

    I'm thinking there's a leak, but not enough to get the valve to open. So there's less water in the tank when it's been sitting for a while. When it's freshly filled the tank is full and you get more water.

    ttekushan_3
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,887

    I didn't pay attention to water level, good point. But yes, no 'tank filling' happening.

    3rd flush is like the 2nd flush

    I'll ask the tenant to pop the lid and take a look. (he seems able minded)

    Thanks

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,113

    Pressure in the building could be pushing some of the water out of the bowl over time too.

    What if you hold the lever so it empties the tank on the first flush? Not quite sure what that tells you but it is another data point.

    The flapper or other flush mechanism in low flush volume toilets is designed to drop back in to the seat long before the tank is empty usually by when the air leaves the bulb in the bottom but this is definitely something to think about. It is going to make the water level dropping an inch or 2 because the flush valve isn't holding a lot more noticeable.

  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,887

    right, holding the handle does not change anything. It's an odd one. I've been pushing the flush handle for decades, never been stumped till now

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,901

    the little pilot jet hole at the bottom of the bowl where it transitions to the throat of the trap, down there in the dirty,

    mine got clogged heading back up to the rim, when yellow mellows it can crust that small pilot channel,

    I ran a snake up there, actually some 3/8 vinyl tube, and broke thru,

    been flushing like a champ since,

    might be worth checking.

    known to beat dead horses
    kcoppPC7060GW
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,113

    You could dump a bunch of citric acid in the bowl and let it soak a while.

    PC7060GW
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,113

    could be something either in the passages in the bowl or in the drain that is floating around

    GW
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,901

    I had read to pour the acid or CLR down that center refill tube to clear the rim jets, and that syphon pilot passage,

    sometimes my hands get dirty

    known to beat dead horses
    GWPRRhot_rod
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,241
    edited June 2024

    If the toilet discharge pathway gets reduced in size by urine salts, you won't get the siphon action you need for a proper flush. Put a glove on and reach down in there and feel the "G" spot and if there's a buildup of deposits, chip it away with a bent spoon or other tool.

    I've used Ed Fred Toilet Bowl Cleaner with good results. Remove all the water in the bowl, pour the entire bottle of Ed Fred in and let it sit overnight. I only have the one toilet in my house, so I had to go in the garden in the middle of the night when I did it. Flush in the morning and scrub that channel with a brush. A second application may be necessary.

    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
    GW
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 792

    I have limited patience for working with toilets. A new Kohler is less than 200 bucks. The hardest part about replacement is carrying the new one in and the old one out.

    GW
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,113

    assuming the flooring goes underneath it

  • Dave Carpentier
    Dave Carpentier Member Posts: 620

    I'd be tempted to either;

    just change the flush flapper on speculation, or

    flush toilet let it refill and then turn the water off for the night, then recheck water level in the am

    30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
    Currently in building maintenance.
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,272

    Fill a bucket with water and dump it down the bowl. If it flushes it's probably not the bowl but the tank. Be sure to check that small ping-pong-sized hole in the bowl for an obstruction.

    Does it have a cylindrical flush valve or a flapper? I'm guessing it's a flapper type with a float on the chain. Either the chain or the float, or both need adjustment. And try adjusting the ball cock to create a high water level.

    If all else fails change the toilet to a Kohler toilet with a cylinder-type flush valve and be done with it. The low-flush toilets can be a bit of a pain with this type of thing.

    mattmia2GWPC7060
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,113

    The flush handle could have rotated in the china changing how far it lifts the flapper too.

  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,887

    yes, all of my units have properly floored and installed flanges-toilets !

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,887
    edited June 2024

    Ok thanks, is kohler the new king? I am out of touch with what's best these days

    What model Kohler? Always happy to spend dough on whats best

    Yes, its a big flapper

    Good idea with bucket

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 668

    Will never go wrong with a Toto Drake series tank/bowl

  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,272

    Kohler is a very good toilet. They have some very good price points too. Are they "king" not sure, but I am sure that they are very reliable and install quite well. If you do get one, avoid the flapper-type flush valve and get a cylinder-type flush valve. They align very nicely avoiding mechanical problems. And they are not too hard on the wallet either.

  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,272

    Model numbers don't come to mind. The big box hardware stores have them in large single boxes that come with pretty much everything you need.

  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,887

    cool, I remember the Cylinder style from the 1980's.

    I forgot the brand at this moment, not one of the majors.

    I always thought they were goofy. But I see that times have changed.

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,887

    We have Toto at our shop-office. They are great, but not super nice looking and the bowl almost touches the baseboard trim, which i think is odd.

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,479

    We love the Gerber Viper we have at the office. Haven't been able to stop it up yet- and we've tried 😫

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    GWSuperTech
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,506

    Cimaron is my preferred Kohler terlet. Newest series have a nice edge flow channel to really scour the bowl.

    GWIntplm.
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 11,113
    GWPC7060
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,887

    yes that’s the Mansfield

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,272

    Yes! Very nice lol. But let us be sure not to mistake the use of one for the other. Or has that already happened?

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,353
    edited June 2024

    @GW If buying a Kohler I'd pull the lid to make sure it uses their cylinder style flush valve which I think all of their better bowls use. Maybe all of them do now, I don't know.

    It seems to take far less effort than a large flapper or even a older normal flapper for that matter.

    I just installed a Memoirs Stately 1.6g a few months ago and have absolutely no complaints about it.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    GW
  • Pumpguy
    Pumpguy Member Posts: 706

    Would anyone know if that Aqua Piston flush valve can be used to replace the common flapper valve?

    If yes, is this true for all brands?

    Dennis Pataki. Former Service Manager and Heating Pump Product Manager for Nash Engineering Company. Phone: 1-888 853 9963
    Website: www.nashjenningspumps.com

    The first step in solving any problem is TO IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,400

    You would have to know the diameter of the hole in the tank and the diameter of the receiving hole on the bowl. If they match and the toilet bowl was designed for the same number of gallons per flush it should work. An important thing to consider with this setup is that to make sure the tank is plumb and level. If the Piston is riding up and down at an angle it has trouble consistently seating.

    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,887

    It doesn't seem extremely impressive, the flush. It's peculiar- they don't show the entire flush cycle, they kind of 'zoom in'.

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=kohler+cimarron+toilet#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6795aaac,vid:l-gmtoM58VE,st:37

    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • dko
    dko Member Posts: 668

    It's not just the flush valve mechanism, but the design of the bowl. The drake style where it swirls all around helps clean very well too.

    PC7060
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,479

    This type doesn't siphon the trap. I saw them in Japan when I was there- not very impressive. Toto does make one with the same rim jet setup where the trap does siphon- I'd use that one.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,353

    This is my 1.6g Kohler Memoirs Stately flushing.

    Its bowl rinse is very good and it doesn't clog.

    https://youtube.com/shorts/OJgppe4oXkk?si=3wg98_R-lkSNJ2uI

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,506
    edited June 2024

    it moves the 💩 with zero clogs, what more we could ask. 😂
    PS: that is also the older version with rim type flush through lots of holes. Newer one jets all water from rights side in channel and scrub the bowl with stronger swirl.

    funny they all seem to make the gulping sound though.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,353

    A good bowl rinse

    If it's got that and no clogs then it's perfect.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.

    PC7060
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,765

    I have 2 Kohlers 1.6 gph about 15 years old. One is round the other elongated. They both flush good but the round one is better.

    I changed one in my nephews rental property. I put in an American Standard cheap HD toilet. Forgot the model 1.25 gph and it flushed great.

    PC7060
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,190

    One curious downside to the modern low flow toilet (not knocking them, Cedric's home has a couple). One of the outbuildings (a guest cottage0 has a very long very flat (about 300 feet, 5 foot drop) sewer line (4 inch) leading to the septic system. I tried a low flow toilet on that line…. and the line clogged. Not enough flow per flush to convey the solids to the tank. (Fortunately I was able to flush it out) Reest the old WC…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    PC7060PRRdelcrossv
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,353

    Cast iron?

    Curious if replacing it with 3" PVC would fix the issue.

    Your pipe is less than 1/4" per foot but more than 1/8 so it still passes modern code.

    Single pipe 392sqft system with an EG-40 rated for 325sqft and it's silent and balanced at all times.