Why boilers are still a great heating source My article for PM Magazine

Hot_water_fan · April 2023

Out of all of the fuels I'd say natural gas has the best bet at being the cheapest to process, transport and store, especially offsite.

My concern is that the management will want to juice their earnings by keeping the minimum gas in storage, like in Texas. Keeping it in the ground until needed to burn is great, unless your gas fields cannot produce one day.

Hot_water_fan · April 2023

If the plans involved a century of planning, growing, getting better, etc., I (and I believe many others) would have a lot less to complain about.

@ratio Just to gauge, what's the timeline you'd be comfortable with?

I, personally, am expecting at least 30 years for residential heating to get to 95% electrified or so. I never expect 100% to be electrified, but that's balanced with some percentage of the oldest buildings being torn down/abandoned just as time marches on.

ratio · April 2023

A hundred years would be fine.

I don't expect 100% electrification either. But I got my guess which end of the population is going to be that last 5%.

All those fossil fuels that are so bad & we gotta stop using because of how bad they are, they'll still be used. Just not by me. That grates a little.

ethicalpaul · April 2023

Diesel and NG powered compressor stations, for example.

And the thousands of NG leaks across every neighborhood in NJ (and every state). I can smell it every day I walk home from the bus stop. No one ever talks about that.

ethicalpaul · April 2023

ratio said:

ethicalpaul said:

I hear people being panicked about them, but who has experienced one?
<raises hand> Although, technically, we were load shed to keep someone else's power on, but I feel like it's pertinent.

And that was because the organization had a special rate with the utility where they agreed to have their capacity cut in exchange for a low rate, correct?

Solid_Fuel_Man · April 2023

I'm all for reduction, and also energy independence. Those two things seem to go hand in hand.

We've already had a century for electrification..... BUT apparently fuel was too cheap and/or electricity too expensive for the masses to see the value.

Something has to change, and it seems scare tactics are taking hold.

Solid_Fuel_Man · April 2023

ethicalpaul said:

I hear people being panicked about them, but who has experienced one?
<raises hand> Although, technically, we were load shed to keep someone else's power on, but I feel like it's pertinent.
And that was because the organization had a special rate with the utility where they agreed to have their capacity cut in exchange for a low rate, correct?

Rolling blackouts are not voluntary. Here in the NE I don't believe they have aver happened on any large scale. That is due to negligible A/C load mostly.

Have a bunch of electricity based heat (heat pumps) and the grids capacity would not be able to keep up. Plug in a few million EVs and the problem compounds exponentially.

Hot_water_fan · April 2023

I don’t think scare tactics are happening. Mostly, it is the market deciding - outside of the northeast, ducted systems dominate. It’s easy to switch those to heat pumps. In fact, the existing heat pump market share is already pretty significant (IIRC 30-40%? I’ll look it up).

ethicalpaul · April 2023

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

ethicalpaul said:

ratio said:

ethicalpaul said:

I hear people being panicked about them, but who has experienced one?
<raises hand> Although, technically, we were load shed to keep someone else's power on, but I feel like it's pertinent.
And that was because the organization had a special rate with the utility where they agreed to have their capacity cut in exchange for a low rate, correct?

Rolling blackouts are not voluntary. Here in the NE I don't believe they have aver happened on any large scale. That is due to negligible A/C load mostly.

Have a bunch of electricity based heat (heat pumps) and the grids capacity would not be able to keep up. Plug in a few million EVs and the problem compounds exponentially.

I know they aren't voluntary. But they are extremely rare. I asked if anyone had experienced one, and the response was not a rolling blackout but I believe a voluntary rate agreement with the utility (but I'm not sure, that's why I asked).

The scare tactics I see are being employed by the gas and oil industries, and by people here who frame every possibility with the idea that the grid is static and never being improved while loads are changing, which is completely false.

The debate is fine, but I'd like to see it presented with facts and not imaginary scenarios.

Steamhead · April 2023

The Washington Post put this up today. Type in your state to see where its power comes from:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/clean-energy-electricity-sources/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=wp_climate202&wpisrc=nl_climate202&itid=ap_harrystevens

ratio · April 2023

ethicalpaul said:
I know they aren't voluntary. But they are extremely rare. I asked if anyone had experienced one, and the response was not a rolling blackout but I believe a voluntary rate agreement with the utility (but I'm not sure, that's why I asked).

Alas, it was not due to an agreement with the power company (I would have no basis to complain if that were the case), but simply the fact that my neighborhood power was shed to keep power on somewhere else. Now, there are certainly reasons why I pulled the short straw, like my neighborhood has the oldest or most inefficient or most damaged infrastructure, but for some reason (cynicism, maybe?) I can't see it happening in rich-neighborhood to the east or wealthy-neighborhood to the south.

ethicalpaul said:
The debate is fine, but I'd like to see it presented with facts and not imaginary scenarios.

Me too.

ethicalpaul · April 2023

OK thanks for that clarification, so you did experience a rolling blackout! Was it a one-time thing or are you seeing it a lot? Mind sharing the duration?

ChrisJ · April 2023

ethicalpaul said:
OK thanks for that clarification, so you did experience a rolling blackout! Was it a one-time thing or are you seeing it a lot? Mind sharing the duration?

I think I saw one some time in the early to mid 90s.
They were turning power off to areas for X amount of time due to excessive power use during a cold snap.

I remember it because my dad hooked up the generator and our chimney was the only one steaming in the area. I think it was for a few hours and I know for a fact it was planned.

ratio · April 2023

It was a few days IIRC. Right after a big storm killed a bunch of distribution lines. Ours got repaired pretty quickly, & was back on for a few hours, & then they shut it back off, (again, IIRC) for longer than it was off before. But I may be misremembering. & It wasn't rolling. It was just off. There may have been other substations off too, IDK.

ethicalpaul · April 2023

Oh it was due to a big storm, not due to the removal of gas stoves and boilers, OK, I don't think that counts for our discussion but thanks for the detail!

WMno57 · April 2023

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_blackout#In_developed_countries

ethicalpaul · April 2023

OK so in California it happened 20 years ago, and it happened a couple years ago in Texas because they don't know what winter is, not seeing the panic here

ratio · April 2023

ethicalpaul said:
Oh it was due to a big storm, not due to the removal of gas stoves and boilers, OK, I don't think that counts for our discussion but thanks for the detail!

If blackouts, rolling or otherwise, were what we are discussing, then I think it very much does count. My electricity was turned off so someone elses' could stay on. While there was a physical failure of some kind involved, the power company's stated reason for shedding me was 'to protect their infrastructure from further damage'. Pretty sure that's nearly an exact quote. Why was there no backup for the weak link? Why are they running so close to the margins? Are there any other neighborhoods that are likely to be shed were this to happen again? Are there any neighborhoods that are not likely to be shed? (Rhetorical questions, please don't answer.)

Dave Carpentier · April 2023

Hot_water_fan said:
In fact, the existing heat pump market share is already pretty significant (IIRC 30-40%? I’ll look it up).

That must be "of new installations" ?
If it was "currently in place", that would be a massive shift.

I know I cant just go drop coins on a ccASHP, the govt rebate would help a little bit but they also require you to remove existing evil-polluter. So then I would need a substantial electric resistance, upgrade our 125a service to 200a, and then pray for no outages (rural living) (or buy a serious generator).

Hot_water_fan · April 2023

Sorry, Dave. It’s 1/3rd of US homes heat with electricity, only 12ish percent use heat pumps. Lots of southern states in that number. I wouldn’t spend any money on a heat pump unless you’re simultaneously replacing AC. That’s what I did, it cost me $0. Then you can keep the oil/gas burner if you want, just adding in redundancy and flexibility.

JakeCK · April 2023

The federal inflation reduction act that upped all the rebates for heat pumps doesn't require you to remove the gas furnace last I checked. Maybe local rebates but not that one unless I'm mistaken.

Rich_49 · April 2023

Hot_water_fan said:
I don’t think scare tactics are happening. Mostly, it is the market deciding - outside of the northeast, ducted systems dominate. It’s easy to switch those to heat pumps. In fact, the existing heat pump market share is already pretty significant (IIRC 30-40%? I’ll look it up).

MANDATES are not the MARKET deciding . They are mandates . Mandate
Politics
In representative democracies, a mandate is the authority granted by a constituency to act as its representative. Elections, especially ones with a large margin of victory, are often said to give the newly elected government or elected official an implicit mandate to put into effect certain policies.

Hot_water_fan · April 2023

I know what a mandate is. My state doesn’t have one, most don’t. They’re coming regardless of mandates or incentives.

HydroNiCK · April 2023

Everyone on heatinghelp losing their shhtuf over this

Meanwhile....

And now I'm going to blow everyone's minds and still buy a heat pump except I'm going to call it a Chiller. and let the public know a secret....they can cool.

ChrisJ · April 2023

HydroNiCK said:
Everyone on heatinghelp losing their shhtuf over this
Meanwhile....

And now I'm going to blow everyone's minds and still buy a heat pump except I'm going to call it a Chiller. and let the public know a secret....they can cool.

HydroNiCK · April 2023

Co-generation Boilers and chp. powered by ng. Produce your own electric, keep boiler for heating, use electric for cooling. Make everyone happy.

Rich_49 · April 2023

HydroNiCK said:
Co-generation Boilers and chp. powered by ng. Produce your own electric, keep boiler for heating, use electric for cooling. Make everyone happy.

Certainly is better having SITE DERIVED power than what they want . Reason this has not gained more traction is because of the power the electric companies LOBBY possesses .

ChrisJ · April 2023

HydroNiCK said:
Co-generation Boilers and chp. powered by ng. Produce your own electric, keep boiler for heating, use electric for cooling. Make everyone happy.

I built a 10kw generator that runs on natural gas, but it's far from efficient.
How does what you posted work exactly?

Rich_49 · April 2023

ChrisJ said:

HydroNiCK said:
Co-generation Boilers and chp. powered by ng. Produce your own electric, keep boiler for heating, use electric for cooling. Make everyone happy.
I built a 10kw generator that runs on natural gas, but it's far from efficient.
How does what you posted work exactly?

ChrisJ these by no means new technology .
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/cogeneration-combined-cooling-heating-power
https://www.energy.gov/eere/iedo/combined-heat-and-power-chp-and-district-energy
https://www.energy.gov/eere/iedo/combined-heat-and-power-basics

Hot_water_fan · April 2023

Cogen is a great option when paired with a heat pump - currently the cleanest method using the grid average. Operating costs much lower than gas only, but install costs are a mystery to me and potentially gigantic. Relying on a 1GW combined cycle is probably cheapest if transmission and distribution costs are low.

HydroNiCK · April 2023

Micro-CHP generator primarily follow heat demand, delivering electricity as the by-product, or may follow electrical demand to generate electricity, with heat as the by-product. When used primarily for heating, micro-CHP systems may generate more electricity than is instantaneously being demanded; the surplus is then fed into the grid.

The purpose of cogeneration is to make use of more of the chemical energy in the fuel. The reason for using CHP systems is that large thermal power plants which generate electric power by burning fuel produce between 40% to 60% low-temperature waste heat, due to Carnot's theorem. The temperature produced by this waste heat (around 80 °C - 150 °C) does allow it to be used for space heating purposes, therefore in some urban areas district heating networks have been installed. Heat networks have a limited extent, as it is not economical to transport heat long distances due to heat loss from the pipes, and it will not reach into areas of low population density, or else revenues per CAPEX will go down. Where no district heating is possible due to low heat demand density or because the local utility has not invested in costly heat networks, this thermal energy is usually wasted via cooling towers or discharged into rivers, lakes or the sea.

Micro CHP systems allow highly efficient cogeneration while using the waste heat even if the served heat load is rather low. This allows cogeneration to be used outside population centers, or even if there is no district heating network. It is efficient to generate the electricity near the place where the heat can also be used. Small power plants (µCHP) are located in individual buildings, where the heat can be used to support the heating system and recharge the hot domestic water tank, thus saving heating oil or heating gas. CHP systems are able to increase the total energy utilization of primary energy sources. Thus CHP has been steadily gaining popularity in all sectors of the energy economy, due to the increased costs of electricity and fuel, particularly fossil fuels, and due to environmental concerns, particularly climate change.

In a traditional power plant delivering electricity to consumers, about 34.4% of the primary energy of the input fuel, such as coal, natural gas, uranium, petroleum solar thermal, or biomass, reaches the consumer via electricity,[6] although the efficiency can be 20% for very old plants and 45% for newer gas plants. In contrast, a CHP system converts 15%–42% of the primary heat to electricity, and most of the remaining heat is captured for hot water or space heating. In total, over 90% of the heat from the primary energy source (LHV based) can be used when heat production does not exceed the thermal demand.

CHP systems linked to absorption chillers can use waste heat for refrigeration.

A 2013 UK report from Ecuity Consulting stated that MCHP is the most cost-effective method of utilizing gas to generate energy at the domestic level....Therefore, boilers are still a great heating source.

HydroNiCK · April 2023

https://renewableenergyhub.co.uk/main/micro-combined-heat-and-power-micro-chp-information/the-flow-micro-chp-boiler/

https://www.lochinvar.com/products/micro-chp/xrgi/

hot_rod · April 2023

CoGens are thermally led. In other words if you don't have a constant thermal load, they don't pencil out well. We had the Lochinvar folks on a Coffee with Caleffi talking about the pros and cons for CoGen.

They work great on a university campus until everyone goes home for the summer and the DHW and heat load are gone. It becomes expensive electricity. And you need a place to dump all the thermal output.

A fan and radiator comes to mind

hot_rod · April 2023

The Bit coin miners are sucking all your power. One transaction takes 1,449 Kwh to complete!

They get tax breaks to locate in your town and cut sweetheart deals with power providers.
We have relatives that live near one in Tennessee, the power goes out in neighborhoods in hot summers occasionally, but they can still hear the mines running.
Maybe some have generators, but those need fuel to run, inefficiently also.

Power and water will always flow towards money.
What a deal for Texans to pay the miners not to use power. Where does that $$ come from?

Rich_49 · April 2023

hot_rod said:
CoGens are thermally led. In other words if you don't have a constant thermal load, they don't pencil out well. We had the Lochinvar folks on a Coffee with Caleffi talking about the pros and cons for CoGen.

They work great on a university campus until everyone goes home for the summer and the DHW and heat load are gone. It becomes expensive electricity. And you need a place to dump all the thermal output.

A fan and radiator comes to mind

Sounds like a good way to sell Thermal storage tanks . Hey , that's what your company does right ? The discussion so far has been mostly about homes Bob , not universities

HydroNiCK · April 2023

hot_rod said:

CoGens are thermally led. In other words if you don't have a constant thermal load, they don't pencil out well. We had the Lochinvar folks on a Coffee with Caleffi talking about the pros and cons for CoGen. They work great on a university campus until everyone goes home for the summer and the DHW and heat load are gone. It becomes expensive electricity. And you need a place to dump all the thermal output. A fan and radiator comes to mind

So does a pool, a wife, and two daughters that love long expensive hot showers. OR just shut it off and use grid electric for summer OR a hamster and a wheel connected to rotor shaft

Hot_water_fan · April 2023

Universities have the benefit of lots of DHW, laundry, district heating and pool heating needs. Plus often a maintenance staff. You need a big house to match that load profile!

hot_rod · April 2023

Rich_49 said:

hot_rod said:
CoGens are thermally led. In other words if you don't have a constant thermal load, they don't pencil out well. We had the Lochinvar folks on a Coffee with Caleffi talking about the pros and cons for CoGen.

They work great on a university campus until everyone goes home for the summer and the DHW and heat load are gone. It becomes expensive electricity. And you need a place to dump all the thermal output.

A fan and radiator comes to mind
Sounds like a good way to sell Thermal storage tanks . Hey , that's what your company does right ? The discussion so far has been mostly about homes Bob , not universities

Actually the post started out about boilers, but many posts here go off on tangents.

Caleffi hasn’t sold thermal storage tanks for about 10 years now, if that is what you are referring to?

But we still understand and train the industry on how to size, pipe and apply thermal storage tanks.

Rich_49 · April 2023

hot_rod said:

Rich_49 said:

hot_rod said:
CoGens are thermally led. In other words if you don't have a constant thermal load, they don't pencil out well. We had the Lochinvar folks on a Coffee with Caleffi talking about the pros and cons for CoGen.

They work great on a university campus until everyone goes home for the summer and the DHW and heat load are gone. It becomes expensive electricity. And you need a place to dump all the thermal output.

A fan and radiator comes to mind
Sounds like a good way to sell Thermal storage tanks . Hey , that's what your company does right ? The discussion so far has been mostly about homes Bob , not universities
Actually the post started out about boilers, but many posts here go off on tangents.

Caleffi hasn’t sold thermal storage tanks for about 10 years now, if that is what you are referring to?

But we still understand and train the industry on how to size, pipe and apply thermal storage tanks.

That's funny , I've purchased them as little as a year ago .
https://www.caleffi.com/usa/en-us/catalogue/thermocontm-storage-tanks-nas20025

hot_rod · April 2023

Rich_49 said:

hot_rod said:

Rich_49 said:

hot_rod said:
CoGens are thermally led. In other words if you don't have a constant thermal load, they don't pencil out well. We had the Lochinvar folks on a Coffee with Caleffi talking about the pros and cons for CoGen.

They work great on a university campus until everyone goes home for the summer and the DHW and heat load are gone. It becomes expensive electricity. And you need a place to dump all the thermal output.

A fan and radiator comes to mind
Sounds like a good way to sell Thermal storage tanks . Hey , that's what your company does right ? The discussion so far has been mostly about homes Bob , not universities
Actually the post started out about boilers, but many posts here go off on tangents.

Caleffi hasn’t sold thermal storage tanks for about 10 years now, if that is what you are referring to?

But we still understand and train the industry on how to size, pipe and apply thermal storage tanks.
That's funny , I've purchased them as little as a year ago .
https://www.caleffi.com/usa/en-us/catalogue/thermocontm-storage-tanks-nas20025

You’re right I see them in the 2019 catalog, not sure if they were in 2020?
.

Why boilers are still a great heating source My article for PM Magazine

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