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Autumn Saturday radiator repipe

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  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    I would love to "see" the actual steam in a radiator. When a radiator is 1/2 hot, is it 1/2 steam? (I don't think so).

    When it's 1/2 hot, is it any steam inside the radiator, or is it instead 212 degree air at 100% humidity condensing on the iron?

    When it's fully hot is it even steam then? Or again, is it not quite there? Is it steam in the very center of each tube with a sort of "front" that is a battle between steam and vacuum?
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • AMservices
    AMservices Member Posts: 610
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    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/161394/vacuum-boost-retrofit-for-1pipe-and-2-pipe-steam-systems/p3

    There's another way to modify a steam system to operate under vacuum and if you do the work your self it's not that expensive.
    In that thread I talk about how me and @izhadano installed his patented vacuum boost system.

    For a brief description of how the system works.
    What you do is run copper tubing from the air vent on the radiator to a vacuum main line. A vacuum pump exhaust all air from the system so your boiler doesn't have to push it out and you balance the air exhausting out of The radiators with ball valves. It's very easy to control how fast and how hot you want any radiator to heat a room.
    With a mechanical vacuum pump you can control the vacuum level in the system at any point in the cycle. For instance, if you wanted to delay the firing of the boiler until you've met 15HG, You have your options.
    Igor controls his vacuum pump on off cycle by the temperature in his flue pipe. If the flue is over 120°F, the pump will maintain 15HG cut out, 8HG cut in.
    On this system, From a cold start at 15HG, I would have steam at all of the radiators in less than 10 minutes.
    Every steam system is unique in it's own way. There for, they need to be controlled in there own way.
    When I first tested the system, I down fired the boiler so much I had it running at sub atmospheric pressure for the whole cycle.
    In freezing cold weather i couldn't get the house past 68°F.
    I needed to have it run a couple ounces to get the full rating out of the radiators in the old house with poor installation.
    If a home has had some insulation upgrades, then I would bet you could size a boiler more to the heat loss of the house and heat with lower temperatures steam.

    Now I'm a steam/ control freak and vacuum pumps aren't for everyone ( @PMJ ). So a natural vacuum system is much easier to set up.
    Basically you leave the vacuum pump out of it. Drop vent lines from your radiators to a common vent line and vent all the air out 1 main vent and check valve.
    The main vent should be closest to the farthest radiator. That doesn't mean it needs to be next to the farthest radiator. That means the farthest radiator vent line needs to be last before the vent. It's done like this so if steam starts getting into the common line, it will have to pass all the way around the common line be for it and get out of the system. There it has time to condense and the low point of pressure is always on the vent side of the radiators.
    Air lines air a 1 time investment. You never need to worry about a radiator vent failing or rusty condensate braking it.

    For what it would cost and the time it could take making custom vac vents, you could probably install air lines.

    I've experimented Installing check valves on 2 pipe steam systems with one main air vent and found I need at least 2 Check valves in line with one another to hold a vacuum and not leak. I've used Spring check valves. I've used swing check valve with water seals. Every size from 1/2" to 1-1/4".
    What I've found using any of them is the air vents out and the boiler gauge might flutter around 1-2 ounces.
    Other then using 2 check valves, the best devices are those that came on old vacuum systems. Just a steel ball sitting on an air eliminator.

    SeanBeansethicalpaul
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
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    @AMservices,

    I think your one pipe system upgrade with air lines to a central location would be the best system - with ultimately more control potential than two pipe systems. I think it would develop more natural vacuum also as steam fills a much higher percentage of the total system than it does in two pipe.

    I am sure a pump would improve everything about vacuum performance. I just want folks to know that even without a pump dramatic performance improvement through natural vacuum is possible.

    I too ended up with a double manual check valve setup on my 2 pipe dry return. Currently they are just a safety outlet should my solenoid vent valve ever fail to open. They are just cheap plastic water system check valves, been on for years and hold vacuum fine.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
    AMservices
  • coelcanth
    coelcanth Member Posts: 89
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    separate lines from each radiator to a common vent is starting to sound suspiciously like a two pipe system..
    i guess these lines would normally not handle much condensate, though...

    it's an intriguing method, but i think i would have a hard time running new lines through finished spaces.
  • AMservices
    AMservices Member Posts: 610
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    coelcanth said:

    separate lines from each radiator to a common vent is starting to sound suspiciously like a two pipe system..
    i guess these lines would normally not handle much condensate, though...

    it's an intriguing method, but i think i would have a hard time running new lines through finished spaces.

    No better way to make a single pipe system work like a 2 pipe system then with a second pipe.

    The vac lines dont get a lot of condensate. But they do need to be installed so not to trap condensate.

    It's not that bad running small, soft roll, copper tubing through walls. There's already a much bigger pipe going in that direction to follow.
    ethicalpaulSeanBeans
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
    edited December 2019
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    I received my remaining fittings from supplyhouse and put them together tonight after dinner, I just couldn’t wait to see how it did.

    I put a tee up top for a vent to let the steam up that 1-1/4 riser nice and fast but I probably don’t even need it. This runout is number 1 off my main, about 8 feet from the header and with a #6 on the radiator it started getting hot before any other radiator in the house, that was awesome. This is the first time I’ve ever seen this radiator’s vent close, it sure feels good to see it work like it was meant to!

    My wife is going to yell about the smell of the new pipe but that’s temporary—the smell, not the yelling 😅

    Thanks to everyone here on HH. It’s because of you that I was able to complete this project, first mentioned by me in this discussion a little over a year ago: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/167233/fixing-pitch-issues-in-old-house

    I got a kick out of reading that thread again with the fine help from @JUGHNE , @EBEBRATT-Ed , @Jamie Hall , @KC_Jones and others!

    Pics below

    PS: regarding possible asbestos in the wall around the old 1" riser, there wasn't any. There was some white blown in foam from the 70s. Interestingly, there is an old hole cut in the first floor near where I sawed my new hole. There was existing patch work on the wall that covered the old riser. It looked like probably 70s work and the galvanized pipe work on this riser in the basement might back that up as well. I'm beginning to think originally the house had exposed risers like I just installed and in the 70s remodel (which was hideous btw) they put the risers in the walls on all the bedrooms and the bathroom!! (I have evidence that at some point the upstairs bathroom was moved to an in-wall unit from a unit in the hall at the window outside the bathroom).

    Does anyone know if in 1915 it was more typical to have exposed risers or in-wall ones in a modest (not fancy trim etc) suburban NJ home?
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
    ksd99wz25
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,061
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    I suppose it's too late now, but did you ever consider a few double reducing tees (xx1/2) in your exposed riser.
    Then chrome plated brass nipples to make towel holders?
    There was some soft CP brass used in old plumbing for nice risers to leg tubs and ped sinks. Bendable for nice curving but still stiff enough to hold your towels or mittens.

    This would impress your wife beyond belief. ;)
    My wife would love it but we don't have a second floor. :'(
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    I probably wrote in a confusing way, but this riser is in the dining room. The towel rack sounds great but our bathroom is so tiny I don’t see it. But maybe I do know a spot...
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    I mounted a big, double-bar towel rack right in front of the radiator in our bathroom. That's my towel warmer.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • SeanBeans
    SeanBeans Member Posts: 520
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    @AMservices that sounds quite awesome. What DO you do with the condensate?
  • AMservices
    AMservices Member Posts: 610
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    > @SeanBeans said:
    > @AMservices that sounds quite awesome. What DO you do with the condensate?

    You return it to the boiler.
  • wz25
    wz25 Member Posts: 22
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    Regarding exposed risers: North NJ with 1915 colonial, and we had exposed risers to every second floor radiator. We boxed two of them in during reno, but still have one.

    Nice work, @ethicalpaul !
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    Thanks @wz25 ! I’m more and more sure this place had them exposed. I’m going to hunt for evidence
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • coelcanth
    coelcanth Member Posts: 89
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    our ca. 1905 house down the hill from you (glen ridge) had a one pipe system with exposed risers to all second floor radiators
    ethicalpaul
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
    edited December 2019
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    Thanks @coelcanth! I go down to Fitzgerald 1928 occasionally!

    Ironic followup: The radiator works too well at night for my wife. I'm going to have to slow it way down but then magically speed it up in the morning at wakeup time.

    Looks like there's a patched hole in the first floor near each of the 4 in-wall risers that my house has (down to two from four now). Each of the in-wall risers was 1" and has at least some galvanized pipe/fittings. Lesson: don't trust recently dead men, only long-dead men.
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    Could this be one of those rare cases where a nighttime setback is called for?
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
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    Hap_Hazzard said:

    Could this be one of those rare cases where a nighttime setback is called for?

    Exactly what I use it for. Step back the recovery so everyone has gently warm radiators in the AM. Happiness all around.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
  • acwagner
    acwagner Member Posts: 505
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    I do a night time setback for comfort as well. I originally used a timed delay relay to space out the recovery and prevent my slightly oversized boiler from causing problems, but now I just use the programmable time slots on the thermostat.
    Burnham IN5PVNI Boiler, Single Pipe with 290 EDR
    18 Ounce per Square Inch Gauge
    Time Delay Relay in Series with Thermostat
    Operating Pressure 0.3-0.5 Ounce per Square Inch

  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    I already do, 3 degrees but because the radiator now works, that is too hot too 😂
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • coelcanth
    coelcanth Member Posts: 89
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    how about a TRV ?
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    She wants it cold at night but hot in the morning. I’m doomed
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • coelcanth
    coelcanth Member Posts: 89
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    take half of the feathers out of the comforter
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 5,702
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    I already tried a similar suggestion, she likes the weight! :bawling:
    NJ Steam Homeowner. See my sight glass boiler videos: https://bit.ly/3sZW1el
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,293
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    The fix: https://www.staulino.com/products/paky-pro-heated-vest?msclkid=64b4d417370e1bf7e06589f24b8c1d02&utm_campaign=Pro Heated Vest BING (Search)&utm_content=+heated +vest&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=bing&utm_term=+heated +vest o:)

    Yours, Larry
    ethicalpaul

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