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Oil to gas conversion with no permit Brooklyn NY?

2

Comments

  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    Dan- I appreciate that it makes sense. Maybe I'm a bit in over my head with this and down the road I can post my name with a success story of how I did the conversion legally.
    off topic a bit, but now that cooler head appear to be prevailing.....and by cooler heads I mean mine, let's say I kept the oil boiler with no conversion. How would I know if it in itself is up to code? I know for a fact the new direct vent code regarding distance from floor and window etc is an issue for my situation. I guess it just hit me that what happens if there's a real issue with my current system and God forbid there was some sort of Fire, I'm again not familiar enough with heating systems to determine this.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    Thanks. I'd have a good oil man go over the system with instruments, and I'd seriously consider getting on automatic delivery and a service plan. I think the bad experiences you're having are related to not having those two things. I'm in Bethpage and we've always had oil. I don't do any of my own work. I can't possibly do it as well as our oil company does it, and my time is better spent doing what I do best, which is writing about this stuff.

    We had a great company install a System 2000 unit for us two years ago and it's been wonderful. No smell at all and I cannot hear it running. We don't have a basement. The boiler and its separate hot-water tank are in a tiny room next to where I'm sitting right now. It's silent and its safe. That may be a good option for you.

    Thanks for calming down. ;-)
    Retired and loving it.
    New England SteamWorks
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
    mleads310 said:


    How would I know if it in itself is up to code?

    You would call @JohnNY , if he services your area, (And it sounds like he does) and ask him to come and look over what you have, pay him for his consulting time and know that it is money well spent and you will have a path forward. It might not be what you want to hear but it will be accurate. He is very well regarded on this site.

    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
    JohnNY
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    I do have the boiler serviced twice a year and the person who Services it works for the oil delivery company. He states that no matter how much you serviced this old boiler it will continue to be dirty because of the type of oil these companies are delivering. Now to be clear I never did ask him about upgrading to a newer oil boiler because I thought I would have the same problem with just a more expensive unit. Am I correct in thinking that even upgrading to a newer system such as one similar to yours I would still encounter a problem with it smelling, being loud, breakdowns and being dirty constantly. the main mechanical issue I was having with my current boiler was two fold. 1- that the injector/piston(nor sure if that's correct name) was constantly getting plugged up and needing to be cleaned or it wouldn't fire correctly and shut down which leads me to have it serviced twice a year. 2- it just couldn't keep up with the hot water demand for example if I had two showers running at once the hot water would lag dramatically even though I have 2 1/2 to 3 gallon per minute fixtures. I'm assuming the coils in these boilers weren't meant to handle such a load? Don't get me wrong I still hate having to get an oil delivery every couple of months in the winter and maybe I can move the tank(stand up Roth) to a different area of the garage and vent it differently to avoid any smell. But at least these are two issues that I'd be willing to accept as long as I can have a clean-burning reliable oil boiler that can keep up with my current demand.
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    Canucker- I'm actually going to reach out to him during slow season as he is very busy which I understand. I'm not sure if he'd still be willing to look at my situation considering the back and forth I've done in this post. But he is highly recommended both online here and through word of mouth with a friend I have. I would absolutely want someone with his knowledge to look at the situation. I'm not in a rush to have the work done and it is the busy season so I wouldn't want to bug him until the weather breaks etc.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    We also have a Roth tank. It's outside the house. I think that if you had what we have you'd never notice it was there.
    Retired and loving it.
    mleads310
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
    Twice a year? Because of dirty oil? I'm not an expert on oil but something tells me your boiler isn't being serviced properly
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
    mleads310rick in AlaskaNew England SteamWorks
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
    edited January 2018
    Grandfathered ....... cities like to try to ignore grandfather issue so they can try to force you to do what they currently want you to . But fundamentally I don't think that is legal, at least here the city is forced to not ignore the law.

    Grandpa built a 20 car parking and repair garage downtown in the 30's before city zoning existed. Later city adopted zoneing and decleared the area residential only. Fast forward to the 90's when we tried to lease out the garge for auto repairs the citytold our tenents to close as that was not allowed in a residential zone, We got a zoning lawyer and city's non-sense quickly ended. City even tried to say we lost the grandfather because we stopped using it for a year ( was vacent),lawyer said "we never intended to give up the grandfathered use". City backed down, they don't like to spend money fighting in court.

    City even lost old paperwork on the bulding, but now days with computers that may not happen. However city did not scan old paperwork into computer. It's likely rotting in a warehouse somewhere,never to see the light of day again. City is too cheap to spend money scanning decades of paperwork. Besides most paperwork from years ago likely didn't have many details on it, let alone drawings

    As a practical matter you might ask a utility gas guy on the street if utility checks for higher useage and reports "new" installs. I am not a heating guy but if utiliy noticed higher usage, they might check you for leakage. But when none is found my GUESS is they would have no interest as the company is making more money.

    Issue about being taxed on illegal garge is a red herring as tax assesor's dept is likley a separate dept from code enforcment dept. At least here it is. Tax assessor's job is to assess and tax all existing buildings & etc, not to determine if they are legal.

    Your mileage may vary.
    mleads310
  • Grallert
    Grallert Member Posts: 643
    Canucker said:

    Twice a year? Because of dirty oil? I'm not an expert on oil but something tells me your boiler isn't being serviced properly

    That.^^^
    The oil nowadays is cleaner than it's ever been. You'll be surprised at your boiler once it's serviced by someone who knows how to service it. Often time the techs from the fuel delivery companies are highly skilled but harried for time and sometimes they're new to it or unskilled.
    Is your Roth filled from outside and is it vented to the out doors? If not have that done.
    Good luck man
    Matthew (real name) :D;)
    Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager,teacher and dog walker
    mleads310scrook_2
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    We replaced a 20-year-old boiler. What a world of difference!
    Retired and loving it.
    mleads310
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    Dan- I must say I do like the cleanliness look and sort of the space saving idea of a roth tank. None the less it does still take up room but I'm willing to accept that if able to get my other concerns addressed by replacing with a newer system. If you don't mind me asking what exactly is the make and model of your system and how do you have it set up?

    Canker/Grallert(Matthew lol)- I remember the last time the gentleman was here to service the boiler we bled out a couple of pints of almost black oil through the Beckett burner. He said it had something to do with biodiesel and that even if I complained about the oil most of the companies are supplied through one supplier and it wouldn't make a difference? Also the system is currently not vented to the outside but the garage is pretty big. it's funny though I don't smell the oil from the vent I smell it more as it burns when the boiler kicks on. Not sure if this is because it is not vented outside or it is because my oil burner is on its last leg.

    Leonard- I honestly wish the city of New York was easier to deal with especially when it comes to things like this. from everything that I'm hearing with other people's personal experiences and through word-of-mouth is that they're looking to hit you first with fines/violations instead of help you resolve the problem legally. The last thing I would want is 20 30 40 $50,000 worth of fines and violations for not only things I did know where illegal and then for many things I probably had no clue about. But yet still end up with nothing but violations and fines
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    I must ask tho. Let's say I wanted to stay with oil and upgrade the system. Would I still have issues regarding inspections,permits etc? Or is upgrading oil to oil not something that needs to be permitted? I'm just trying to think of any issues etc I may encounter.

    Thanks again
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    Fyi I meant tank is not vented to outside. Boiler is direct vent to outside
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
    edited January 2018
    Sounds like the city treats their code enforcement dept as a revenue source, sad as that gives people incentives keep doing risky things. If you really don't want to risk heavy fines the answer is obvious, don't convert.

    Smelling oil from burner........... does burner have a mini explosion when it starts? Here that puffs a little smoke out the burner. Delayed ignition. Check your hi-voltage insulators for soot, and large spark gap.

    One issue with grandfather is what was done had to have been properly done (and permitted/inspected at the time, if required)

    EI ....Here GFI is required for bathrooms. But they can't force you to add it to an old house, unless you change the outlet. However in residential rentals every 3 years they inspect the apt. Code guy said I had to install a GFI in bathroom of an apt. I claimed it was grandfathered, he said apts are required to meet current code. I likely could have fought it and won, but for $8 I bought a GFI and installed it myself, no inspections. When he came back to check it in a few weeks he was happy and didn't give me any problems. He said next inspection would be in 3 years, as per normal schedule.

    Off topic and a Gray area , but a lawyer I talked with said since city told me to change something (GFI in this case) that might stop me from needing to get a permit (asking their permission to do that thing). However city might see it differently.....

    Interesting thing is I've noticed here the city makes bunch of rules, not all of which are allowed by state and general law. At times city has been chanenged in court and had to pay heavy fines for ignoring general law when city makes their ordinances that dont' comply with general law.
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    Leonard- I totally understand the issue with converting from oil to gas and permits etc.. I guess my question was what if I'm just upgrading from my old oil boiler to new oil boiler? Would it be legal or would I still need permits?

    Also there's no mini explosion, on occasion it does puff a little smoke(usually right before it breaks down and gets serviced) it is loud when running tho. Not sure about the other questions you have raised, I'm just not that knowledgeable when it comes to boilers.
  • NewbieInQueens
    NewbieInQueens Member Posts: 25
    As a homeowner in nyc I know firsthand what PITA doing a oil to gas conversion is, It only took me 2 1/2 years for mine (but I have Con Edison, that is harder to work with than National Grid)

    You WILL get busted without a doubt, your gas usage will jump by 20x and National Grid will think you have a leak and request an inspection.
    -You will probably get service shut down which means no GAS at all in your house
    -You will get hit with some BIG fines
    -The paperwork with the DOB to correct will be a nightmare

    I just can't imagine any grown adult trying to do what you want to do. The liability is HUGE.

    With all that said, if it's a small home, the plumber can self-cert the job and it's very possible the DOB does not even go. If they do, they might not even look twice at your deck, especially if it looks like it's been there a while.

    If it's a multi family, you will get Boiler division to check it out and I don't think they will care about your deck either. And if it's multi family and something happens to someone, good luck.
    Mad Dog_2
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    Newbie- I absolutely understand the concerns with doing work without a permit. In fact throughout this topic I'm starting to lean in a different direction on the advice and thoughts of others. it is a small single family residential home. My understanding is that plumbers in the boroughs are not allowed to self sign off on boiler work any longer? Has the information I've been given about this incorrect? If what you're saying is true and the plumber can sign off on his own work, then I would absolutely have no problem going down that road considering it is legal to do it that way.
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,226
    I've only skimmed through a few of the responses after mine but I see the issue of direct venting has come up as a more Code-compliant alternative to natural draft Category 1 chimney venting. NYC has made sidewall venting a nightmare to get through the inspection process and the restrictions are clear and numerous: no vent terminations within 4 feet of a door or window or building opening of any kind; observe the snow line; no venting above a walkway; no venting within 10 feet of a lot line; etc. And then the combustion air rules have to be observed.
    It's a tight spot for a homeowner to get in to.
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
    Classes
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,722
    I grew up with oil here is a complete list of things you should smell from a properly running, PROPERLY tuned oil system:

    1. Nothing

    It sounds like you are paying good money for bad service, this sort of reinforces the comments on good and bad contractors and what they will do.

    Can't be cleaned because it's old, now that's funny. What are the results of the combustion analysis they do during the tune up? Oh wait I bet they don't do that do they?

    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    New England SteamWorksCanucker
  • NewbieInQueens
    NewbieInQueens Member Posts: 25
    mleads310 said:

    Newbie- I absolutely understand the concerns with doing work without a permit. In fact throughout this topic I'm starting to lean in a different direction on the advice and thoughts of others. it is a small single family residential home. My understanding is that plumbers in the boroughs are not allowed to self sign off on boiler work any longer? Has the information I've been given about this incorrect? If what you're saying is true and the plumber can sign off on his own work, then I would absolutely have no problem going down that road considering it is legal to do it that way.

    I did my small home around 8 years ago and the plumber self signed. DOB never showed up to inspect, so it was just signed off. I can't say if that is no longer the case, I'm just a homeowner

  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    JohnNY- what you stated is exactly what I have heard from multiple sources regarding the direct venting. Now the good thing is I do have the space and the location to have it directly vented correctly. The direct vent can be moved easily to a location where it would be within the parameters of the new codes to my understanding.

    KC- again you would absolutely know better than I do. as I am no expert when it comes to heating systems. but I am taking your word for it that you are correct. And you're correct in that the person who serviced the boiler did not run any tests that you are referring to. It looked like he was cleaning everything out and replacing filters/nozzle and such.
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
    edited January 2018
    I believe @Mad Dog and @gennady work in the New York area. They're probably as busy as @JohnNY is, though. Contact them and see. This dislike of your oil set up could be just from bad service and anyone of the 3 mentioned could solve that problem.
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • kjl520
    kjl520 Member Posts: 10
    My Lord! I thought Chicago was bad, apparently I'm wrong! Permit this, certify that... That's all just crazy. It causes people to be scofflaws. Here, in Chicago, if you're doing any work yourself, on your property you don't need permits. It's YOUR STUFF!!! We don't require any certification to be HVAC techs. Of course you have to be licensed plumber to work on plumbing. But we don't let plumbers do HVAC here. That's why we have HVAC techs, who SHOULD be trained in CO and Combustion. I just couldn't stand for all that Government overreach. Also the gas company should not want to come inside your house for an inspection. They wouldn't realize an increase in usage for weeks or months. So they want to come in and check for a leak causing 20x your normal usage?? I'm sure a "search" would not be needed, that's just silly. My best suggestion, sell the house and move somewhere where you can be free. Including being free to kill yourself and your family, which is almost stupid to say, but people will. But people saying that are just being dramatic.
    Docfletcher
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    Canucker-I appreciate the referrals. It couldn't hurt to contact them and pay for a visit for them to look at the system/situation. Plus now I'm concerned about the quality of the system I currently have and would want to make sure that first and foremost what system I'm running and how it is running is safe. Regardless if I convert,don't convert, upgrade'etc. I'm now thinking I should have an expert in here to at least look over my system and tell me that everything is safe and done correctly. Then worry about any upgrades and such after that is determined.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    This is what we have silently heating our place. It's in a very tight space.


    Retired and loving it.
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    Dan- appreciate the picture, looks very clean. I know you're out in Bethpage but do you know if New York City requires a permit to upgrade from one Royal system to another oil system or am I still looking at the same permits etc? Also do you know if plumbers are still allowed to self sign off on that work in the five boroughs?
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    I don't know. Let's have the plumbers answer that.
    Retired and loving it.
    Canucker
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    I'm really hoping someone has clarification on this because everything that I try to find online with the city of New York and the building department States they do not allow self-certification on buildings but there is no reference to single and two family residences? Then as I read on to some of the guidelines even for the buildings(not single family) itself they State you're allowed self-certification only if an engineer or an architect signs off on it which is even more confusing. I hope someone has some insight to this. it would definitely help, not only the general knowledge but me allow me to do an upgrade and or conversion legally with the correct license plumber
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    Here is what I was able to find attached.
  • Leonard
    Leonard Member Posts: 903
    Here air compressor tanks need to be inspected by city every year. Had 80 gal one, city guy just eyeballed it. Looked at pressure gauge and looked at label for tank rating, stamped numbers into a strip of aluminum and wired it on the compressor. And collected a fee.

    No looking at bottom of tank for rust or other safty issues, I was not impressed.

    Another time old neightbor wanted to repave her driveway and walkway to back. Had to pay almost as much for civil engineer survay of the property to show paved areas would meet set backs to property lines. In the end I saw the city guy "inspect" the final work. Just got out of his car gave a casual 1 minute look at the job, didn't even look outback ,got back in his car and left,inspection complete. Lot of nothing for the thousands of dollars extra she spent
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
    JohnNY said:

    HVACNUT said:

    File for the permit.

    I think the inspectors wife likes the pies from the corner bakery (wink wink, nod nod).

    What's the worst that could happen? Ha!

    He could be convicted and fined or jailed for bribing a NY city inspector. This isn't the '80s. Since several deaths due to home explosions and building collapses caused as a direct result of illegal work, NYC has a new attitude toward the way gas installations and repairs are performed.
    This is the single most obnoxious post I've ever read on this forum. Let's not make it worse.
    This poster is going to find some fly-by-night "plumber" to do this work for him and it's going to be done illegally because that's exactly what he wants. Then he'll find out what it means to do business with someone who has no legal obligation to the job he's performed nor any motivation to warranty or otherwise honor any claim to the integrity of the installation. But he'll be happy because he's successfully said a big F. U. to the system put in place to protect him and others like him.

    He's not talking about installing an un-permited toilet in his basement or an irrigation system for his flower bed. He's doing a full-on oil-to-gas conversion with an oil tank removal, gas shut-off and turn-on (even licensed plumbers can't do that anymore in NYC), chimney connection to God-knows-what, and purchasing new equipment for big dollars.

    The liability here is huge. Let the poster find what he's looking for and thank your lucky stars you had nothing to do with it.

    All to save his deck. Ridiculous.
    Thank you for taking the time to respond, and say exactly what I agree with...it’s not only a code it’s the frigen law..
    Docfletcher
  • scrook_2
    scrook_2 Member Posts: 610
    “Direct Vent Oil” = Power Vented Oil”?
    The devil’s in the nomenclature details!

    The gas price/rate schedule may be different for Residential Heating than your current Residential Non-Heating rate, so you’d need to change your account w/ the gas co. (Nat’l Grid in MA has differing rates.)

    As for prior un-permited construction at your house and in the neighborhood, I can’t help you, but wish you luck. Maybe there is an inexpensive way to fix it, if indeed it was a broad issue a time past in the neighborhood/development.
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    J a- I appreciate your agreement with JohnNY. Since the discussion has progressed since that lady post, you might be able to help me out? Do you know what the law and codes are regarding plumbers in the outer boroughs(not Manhattan) of NY signing off on their own work on Residential Properties? I am assuming since you are very familiar with exactly what the code and law is that you might be able to help myself on some clarification on what can and cannot be done legally?

    Thanks in advance
  • mleads310
    mleads310 Member Posts: 49
    Typo* lady post=last post
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,513
    Lady post was growing on me. ;-)
    Retired and loving it.
    Canucker
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    MLEADS. DO YOURSELF a BIG FAVOR. call In JOHN-N.Y. and listen to him. Stop spilling
    Your guts here, CABEESCH? Mad Dog
    Dan FoleyCanuckermleads310Docfletcher
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,452
    @mleads310 read your own words "I currently have an oil fired direct vent GAS boiler" Like I said in my first post. It doesn't exist.

    Also: in your own words
    "He states that no matter how much you serviced this old boiler it will continue to be dirty because of the type of oil these companies are delivering"

    Think about that. That statement makes no sense at all. Does your neighbors boiler burn dirty? It should if what your service technician told you is true. And so shouldn't every other boiler in town that burns oil.


  • invermont
    invermont Member Posts: 73
    The deck and garage are 20 years old? Your taxed on it? Get the permit and do the redo. If it was there before you bought it I’m sure the town knows about it. Your lawyer should of mentioned the issue before closing
    Docfletcher
  • coelcanth
    coelcanth Member Posts: 89
    as a recently minted new homeowner in Queens, I sympathize with original poster..

    I don't have experience with your situation specifically, but I have dealt with National Grid a bit lately, so i think in your situation i might be willing to risk undertaking a conversion without permit.

    we live in a 100 year old two family house that needs a lot of work.. big projects and small. i can see on the city's official buildings website that there has never been a work permit opened or a violation issued in the entire lifetime of the house.

    when we moved in, it took national grid a couple months to notice we were using gas at the address but with no account set up (we're a bit disorganized here). no one ever came by to inspect for a leak.. they just assumed we were burning the gas and turned it off from the street.
    eventually, when they came by to turn the service back on, the serviceman needed to come into our basement to make sure all the lines were bled properly. He did not ask about any of the equipment or whether it had all been installed with a permit.
    He did not notice the lack of asbestos insulation (removed without a permit) but had it still been there, he probably would've been able to issue a violation. He did notice and inquire about our vacant first floor and decided to turn off the gas meter for that service from within our basement.

    this past fall, we had our gas boiler replaced with another. the plumber i settled on was willing to work with a permit or without, but he estimated permits would add a few weeks time in bureaucracy and a few thousand dollars in fees. he did make sure to note i should be responsible for any buildings dept fines incurred and even added such a clause to our written contract.

    this winter, national grid contacted all their customers about a rebate for any energy efficient equipment installed in the past year. nowhere in the application did it ask for any information or evidence of proper permits, but it did ask for the licensed plumber’s info.
    I've applied for rebates for the new efficient boiler and the two new water heaters we had done at the same time..

    we'll soon see if i get a small rebate or a big fine !
    Docfletcher
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,831
    I SEE and have been on both sides, as a contractor and homeowner. I've seen soooo
    Many times, these non-permited heating equipment, gas and plumbing issues rear their ugly heads and ALWAYS at the worst times:
    It pops up at the real estate closing or two day before when Uncle Morty & Aunt Mildred have their bags packed to Go South for retirement. Or, Uncle Gus did all his own work in the house, but he's dead and his CLUELESS wife is left holding the bag. It's always HIGH stress for them, the closing gets delayed and sometimes the deal is broken! Don't leave this for you or your family to come back to bite you'll down the road. Get an architect, an LMP and grab the bull by the horns
    The granite countertops, drapes, flat screen TV can wait. Business before pleasure. BTW,,Ed is 100% right. Good luck and keep us apprised. YOU CAN DO THIS! MAD DOG
    SlamDunkJohnNYDocfletcherj a_2