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Lochinvar Boiler

helmetknob
helmetknob Member Posts: 13
in Radiant Heating
I have a Lochinvar boiler that has started throwing an error "lockout - outlet temp diff"

Boiler repairman has replaced both sensors and on Friday the main control board ($800) and it ran fine Friday night, Saturday night, and this morning I get the same damn error. I'm now into this repair for $1500 and getting the same error. Any Lochinvar experts got any ideas?

Comments

  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,611
    Could you post a picture showing how your system is piped?
    How long did it run before this happened?
    Did anything change?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    helmetknob
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,463
    Personally I would not charge someone for something that did not get fixed, but I seem to be weird in that regard.
    Lochinvar had a bad sensor on the khn's, which I believe was the outlet sensor. If I remember right, it was two sensors in one, and there was an issue with the way they were molded. I would contact Lochinvar and see what they say.
    Rick
    helmetknob
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,611
    edited November 2017
    Sensor errors could be caused by bad sensors or board.
    More often, the sensors are doing their job and the issue is with the flow.
    It sounds like your repairman is throwing parts at the problem rather than troubleshooting.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    Canuckerhelmetknob
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    Thank you all for your replies. I too feel like I shouldn't have to pay if it isn't fixed and he is running the playbook from Lochinvar where it says "replace sensors, then replace board"

    New board installed Friday at 5pm and it ran fine until today about 10am. It doesnt lock itself out while it is heating water but rather locks out while in "standby"

    I have attached 2 pictures if this helps and again thank you for all the comments.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,611
    Can You post the model number of the boiler?
    Also a picture from farther back that shows more piping would help.
    The black circulator is installed incorrectly, probably not your problem today.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    helmetknob
  • Aida46
    Aida46 Member Posts: 1
    Ye,need model number.To understand and give the right answer.
    I will try to help, I have a little experience in fixing :)
    "My future project"
    helmetknob
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    To all who have replied I thank you. Tonight when I get home I'll post up the Model number which I stupidly forgot to get this morning. Must be all this gray hair. Here are two more pix.
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    Looks like a whn
    helmetknob
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    Ha! I found the model number from the original invoice:

    Lochinvar boiler, 96 AFUE, low fire 31,000 BTU, high fire 155,000. model # WHN155
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    edited November 2017
    Your repairman/installer is/are incompetent. That code indicates that your not getting proper flow through the boiler. Could be because the boiler circulator is installed wrong with the motor positioned vertically which will cause it to fail.

    It also appears your primary loop is piped incorrectly, but I can't tell for sure because the leaf blower is blocking part of the view.

    What is it about human nature that always wants to place blame on the thing or person that shows there's something wrong?

    By the way, I would neither charge someone for incompetency, nor would I pay for it.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    CanuckerhelmetknobJohnNYHarvey Ramer
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    Thanks for your insight Bob. I also would not and have not charged for anything I didn't fix in my field of IT. I will move the leafblower and take another picture when I get home from work.

    Meanwhile, I'm feeling ripped off...

  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    I understand. I doubt if it's intentional. Again, just incompetency.

    There's no excuse for that circ being installed wrong: Grundfos puts pictorial instructions in the box which clearly show not to mount it that way. You don't even have to be able to read to understand it.


    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    Canuckerhelmetknob
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    edited November 2017
    If you turn the knob as it runs you will see a readout for inlet and outlet temp along with Delta t. Possibly system temp too

    I could be wrong but a very high delta t would indicate too slow of a flow thru the boiler.

    It looks like there are 3 zone circs but only one return with the y strainer in it
    helmetknob
  • Brewbeer
    Brewbeer Member Posts: 616
    Boiler is almost certainly too large for your application.

    What is the diameter of the primary loop? That too could be an issue when the boiler is firing at 100%. The WHN can be programed to limit it's firing rate, it could be set to fire at a reduced rate (say 50%) which may reduce low flow lock-outs.
    Hydronics inspired homeowner with self-designed high efficiency low temperature baseboard system and professionally installed mod-con boiler with indirect DHW. My system design thread: http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/154385
    System Photo: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/79/451e1f19a1e5b345e0951fbe1ff6ca.jpg
    helmetknob
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    @Leon82 and @Brewbeer thanks guys! I am now in a bit of a quandary as to where to go next. If I call my existing boiler repair company it will be $192 per hour for him to get on the phone with Lochinvar. I won't mention them by name but are an established company here in the Bay Area of Kalifornistan for like 100 years. Obviously it doesn't mean they know what they are doing but jeez already $1500.

    The radiant heat loops/runs were here when I bought this house so all I know is there are three (3) of them. I had the boiler installed by a different company (was not impressed so do not use them now) but the boiler has been working for 5 years...until now.

    I have contacted Lochinvar and am awaiting their response.

    I should have been a plumber and not an IT guy...nah. Then it would be even MORE screwed up :-)
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    edited November 2017
    Wow. You paid them $1500 because they didn't know what they were doing and now they want you to pay them so they can find out what they should have known before they touched your boiler! I know what I'd being doing if I were you.

    There are clear instructions in the service manual on how to test the sensors and control board, they chose to guess at what's wrong based upon their vast lack of knowledge.

    Again I ask: what's the matter with people that they want to replace safeties because they performed their intended purpose?

    I'd suggest you talk to the owner and ask why you should pay for this and why they took the service call when they lacked the skills and knowledge to work on your boiler. Honesty should have led them to tell you that it was out of their wheelhouse.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    helmetknob
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    Seems to be a lot of installs posted here lately with the pump installed with the wrong shaft orientation?

    Same goes for the Exp tank, many are unsupported just dangling in the air. If they ever become waterlogged... flooded basement!

    Lazy, incompetent, or just don't give a crap?
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    @Ironman I have a call in to the supervisor of said company and am awaiting his call to see what they will do. From the Lochinvar website I see a "certified" Lochinvar company in San Rafael that I may end up having to call. Lesson learned for sure. Well this time anyway!

    @NY_Rob Sadly we the public are at the mercy of the people that get paid for installing these, so might well be all three.

    Thank you all for the great information and very timely responses!!
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited November 2017
    I'm amazed they didn't notice or comment on the incorrectly installed pump?
    That right there could be causing flow problems with trapped air.
    helmetknob
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    Attached another picture showing all the pumps (with no leaf blower in the way). I have had the power turned off to it since yesterday after i did the "shutdown sequence"

    Tonight I turned the power on and started the boiler. The screen said "post purge" or something like that but it is running for right now. I suspect it will run until the temp is achieved and it goes into "standby" which is when it seems to **** the bed.

    No response from Lochinvar today...

    For the moment there is heat. Thank you all again for your insights. I am also awaiting a call from the boiler repair company supervisor...
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    Can you get a pic from a little further back that shows all the circs, including the one under the boiler? Please move the board, too.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    helmetknob
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    Update: House came to temp and the boiler is in "standby" with no lockout error. Could it be as simple as the repairman never did the "shutdown" correctly and just kept flipping the power switch on the circuit? I added couple pictures for you @Ironman and thanks for continuing to help!!
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    No new pics.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    I must have closed the page before the pix uploaded. Here are the pix again.

    Update: This morning it s in "lockdown" so it must have attempted to come on overnight as the temp dropped and locked itself out.

    ****.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    It's piped wrong. The way it now is, the boiler circ is in series with the secondary circs.

    There should be some type of hydraulic separation between the boiler and the secondary loops. That's usually accomplished with closely spaced Tees or a Low Loss Header.



    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    helmetknobkcopp
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    Fooey...but thanks Bob. I guess I know my next step. I also suppose I should choose a boiler repair/installer that has been trained on the Lochinvar boilers.
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    edited November 2017
    Yes, but p/s piping is universal concept no matter which brand.
    And somewhere those 3 zones are converging on the single return
    helmetknob
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    Thanks @Leon82 - I believe I understand the concept but it seems I have multiple problems with my boiler repair company.

    They seemingly missed what everyone here has pointed out as an improper install. In addition to that they are throwing my money at a Lochinvar lock out code.

    This has been a very interesting (but I expect will be costly) learning experience and maybe when the install is set up correctly and the error codes go away my system will be more efficient and less error code prone.

    Thank you all again! Everyone has been very helpful!

  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,516
    edited November 2017
    Try the contractor locator on site.

    If that's a WHN model, it has the fire tube heat exchanger which doesn't necessarily require primary/secondary piping because of its low resistance to flow. You MAY be able to direct pump it which means you could remove the boiler circ and the zone circs can pump the boiler. Not the perfect setup, but probably acceptable.

    If it's a WBN model, then it has a Gianonni heat exchanger which has high flow resistance and it MUST be piped p/s.

    Also, check the screen in the strainer on the return line. It may be plugged and restricting flow.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    helmetknob
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,127
    This may help you and your contractors. It was written especially for this type of post. It may even have your job in it.


    https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_19_na.pdf
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    helmetknob
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,645
    I consulted on a project where the boiler failed for not having enough flow when only one zone pump was running. The boiler failed in a short time. Proper flow should verified. Good luck.

    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
    helmetknob
  • MikeJ
    MikeJ Member Posts: 103
    Has the strainer been checked?
    Leon82
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,287
    helmetknob said:

    If I call my existing boiler repair company it will be $192 per hour for him to get on the phone with Lochinvar.

    Has no one else picked up on this statement?

    What the heck is this?
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
    Classes
  • Boon
    Boon Member Posts: 260
    edited November 2017
    When the contractor doesn’t know what they’re doing and they spend time talking with tech support while billing the customer the hourly rate for the service call. My guess, anyway. Ask me how I know!
    DIY'er ... ripped out a perfectly good forced-air furnace and replaced it with hot water & radiators.
    helmetknob
  • helmetknob
    helmetknob Member Posts: 13
    I have called everyday this week and have been told that a supervisor would contact me to get this resolved. I have gotten no calls.

    At this point I think I will have to hire another boiler repair company to get it working right and installed correctly and fight the other company to get my money back.

    I am able to "make" it work by resetting it in the morning after it locks out over night. At least I have heat in the evening before bed.
  • Henry
    Henry Member Posts: 998
    Look at the I & O manual and you will see that there are many issues with your install. The pipe sizing, pump installation etc leave a lot for a good litigation. Find someone that is certified by Lochinvar that can document all the deficiencies while using actual documentation. And have your lawyer in discovery ask the best question: what are the licensed qualifications of the people and company who worked on your system! I win more with that question than anything else!
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,611
    One thing you could do yourself is observe the supply and return water temps when the boiler is running. You should be able to see them when you scroll through the menu. Also, what is the system pressure? Can you hear air in the pipes?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • MikeJ
    MikeJ Member Posts: 103
    What seems surprising to me that it has worked for 5 years. Has there been any other problems in that time period? Has any one seen a pressure gauge or did i miss it?
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    I think the y strainer inspection suggested is a good idea. It could have 5 years of accumulated particles in it. I'm not sure if there are isolation valves near it though
  • keyote
    keyote Member Posts: 659
    My KHN which I think is the newer model has so many programmable parameters its insane. whats nice is if you can think of a configuration and system sequence you can program it to cooperate. The bad thing is its a LOT of learning to understand what it can do an how to make it do it. Mine for instance was staying in standby despite a call because one of the default settings was a differential between the outlet water and the system water was set so that until the sytem water fell more than 10 degrees between the outlet water sitting in the boiler after the last call then it said setpoint met and would wait until it cooled to meet the next call. This was complicated by several other setting, when the pumps would start and how long they would run and whether before or after purge and ignition. It was solved when i had the pump strt as soon as a call came in which caused the water to be flushed from the boiler will cooler return from a calling zone. i could also have changed the differential, an probably could have done several other things as well. My point is this boiler has an enormous decision tree and any branch can hamper it doing what you want. Has anyone been playing with the control panel? Are your pumps working? so many possibilities.

    BTW I at least was able to pipe direct without a flow issue. generously sized headers and zone valves work fine even with only one zone so far added to system ( adding floors as I reno)

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