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Steam Heat Water Issues

mike212
mike212 Member Posts: 50
I have a steam heat, one pipe system with one main and main vent. The house is 90 years old, the boiler is 18 years old. Its a Weil-McLain Gold Oil Boiler, model # P-SGO-5

I turned on the heat for the first time yesterday (we recently moved into the house so I have no I don't have a baseline to compare this experience to).

The house heated well, but we had some problems, some of which I didn't discover until it was running for some time. First one of the radiators produced a lot of noise from the air vent and produced a lot of wet steam. The room was humid. Another radiator produced a lot of noise as well from the air vent.

The wet steam radiator also produced the clanging sound towards the end of the first cycle and then again when the second heating cycle started again.

The heat was turned off after two heating cycles.

The glass water tube was at the proper level before turning on the heat. I also flushed some water out of the system until it was clear before starting the system up.

Later in the day I went to look at the boiler again and the glass tube showed the water was completely full. I have emptied 8 buckets of water and its still showing a completely full tube. Also there is a puddle of water near the main air vent.

I have kept the heat off and am trying to figure out what to do next. Keep draining water? Any ideas what to do or look for? Thanks.




Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,170
    How long has it been since the boiler was cleaned and the burner cleaned and adjusted? That should be done at least once a year, and if you could find someone who also knew something about steam heat that would be a plus. Try the "Find a Contractor" tab on this site -- searching by state usually works best. That's step 1.

    OK. That out of the way. Step 2. On the boiler there will be a control called a pressurestat -- usually a blue box with a scale and indicator on it. That scale thingy should be set somewhere around "1", and I'm betting that it isn't. You can adjust that with the screw on top of the box. That may help some.

    Step 3. Nothing will work properly until the boiler water level is right, so if the gauge glass really is full you will need to keep draining water out until you get the water level down to about the middle of the glass, or maybe a bit higher than that.

    Now. Having adjusted the pressurestat, and having adjusted the water level, find the water pipe which is used to fill the boiler. It should have a hand valve on it (probably also has an automatic valve; don't worry about that at the moment). Turn the hand valve off and fire up the boiler and don't go away. Keep an on the water level in the gauge glass. It should stay reasonably steady. It's normal for it to drop some -- an inch or two, perhaps, once steam is raised, but it should be reasonably steady. No jumping up and down. If it drops below the gauge glass, the boiler should shut itself off, but if it doesn't, you get to shut it off - that's one reason for staying and watching it.

    If the boiler is steaming nicely with a reasonably steady water level, you can go back to your misbehaving vents and see what they are doing. They should close when steam hits them, and not be letting any more air (or steam!) out. It's quite possible that they have failed and will need to be replaced.

    It's also quite likely that the main vent is too small -- assuming that it is working at all. But that's getting a bit ahead of the game. All of the above may fix the clanging -- but if not there are ways to fix that, too -- but that's also getting ahead of the game.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    @mike212 When you drained some water out of the boiler, did you refill it and forget to shut the water supply valve off? If the boiler is still over-filling, shut all water supplies to the boiler off, including any auto feeds until you figure out where the additional water is coming from. If you leave it as is, the water level may continue to rise until it fills your radiators and spills out of the radiator vents/main vents, which could ruin a lot of things, floors, ceilings, carpets, etc.
  • mike212
    mike212 Member Posts: 50
    @Jamie Hall
    It was last serviced in February 2016.

    The pressure seems ok, its right around 1 now (maybe a little lower).

    I drained some more and the water is at the proper level now.

    The boiler seems to have acted ok when turned back on - watching just the boiler now - the water remained in the proper range but it is jumping around a little but less than 1 inch.

    The main air vent and one of the radiators have produced a lot of wet steam though. The main valve is producing wet steam and one of the upstairs radiators (just one) is producing a lot of wet steam (the wall is wet and the room feels like someone took a hot shower). The wet steam is coming out for what seems like the entire heating cycle.

    Its not very cold here now so just did one cycle and then turned off the heat for the night.

    There was no loud banging noise during this heating cycle.

  • mike212
    mike212 Member Posts: 50
    @Fred

    I definitely turned off the manual water supply valve after refilling. The water was at a good level for about a day before I turned the heat on. I'm keeping a close eye on it but one thought I heard was the automatic refill controller could be providing a bad signal at times and leaking in some water. Currently it seems the water level is holding at the proper level but I'm going to keep a close eye on it.

    The high levels of wet steam from the main vent and one of the upstairs air vents are now the two issues I'm researching. I thought that was related to the high water but not sure now.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    It sounds like you have a bad vent on that radiator and maybe a bad main vent as well. Sounds like they are stuck open. They should close as soon as steam hits them, early in the heating cycle. Also check that radiator and make sure it has a slight pitch back towards the steam supply pipe. If it is pitched the wrong way, it can pool water and spit that out through the vent.
    mike212
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,170
    In very few words. Those two vents are toast. Replace them!
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    mike212
  • mike212
    mike212 Member Posts: 50
    @Fred and @Jamie Hall
    Thanks to you both. I will do that and report back.

  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,576
    Make sure you have an accurate 0-3 psi gauge on there to verify that 1 psi setting, as the old gauge may be inaccurate.
    Invest in some new generous sized main vents, like the Bigmouth from Sailah, which will make your system more balanced, and quick to heat. Have the burners been cleaned properly?--NBC
  • mike212
    mike212 Member Posts: 50
    Burners have been cleaned in Feb 2016.

    I'm going to get a better main vent like you recommended. Now the trouble is getting the old vent off. It won't budge. Sprayed some PB blaster on it overnight but still too tight.

    Here is a picture of the current main vent.

    http://addsnaps.com/i/0lLC1fE
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,576
    Can't see much from that picture, but the old vent is probably brass, and so will not have rusted into place.
    Use an open ended wrench on the flats, and tap the end of the wrench with a hammer to first tighten, and then loosen it.--NBC
    mike212
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
    @nicholas bonham-carter is there a female threaded connection in addition to the male threads on that vent? It looks like both connections are male and l only know one way to get them apart or keep them together, and a wrench isn't involved
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,616
    Outside & inside threads.
    Charlie from wmassCanucker
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    that style of vent has a pretty low venting rate, your system would probably be better served with a larger vent. Hoh long are the steam mains and what size is the pipe in the steam main(s)?

    If that vent won't move with a little persuasion, I'd use a torch to heat the male thread, that will cause it to expand and should make it removable. Just try and heat it all around but don't heat the pipe it screws into and be careful of any nearby wood.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    mike212
  • mike212
    mike212 Member Posts: 50
    Steam main is about 30-32 feet total length it snakes around a bit. Plumbing stores around me are closed today but will look for a replacement tomorrow if it can, or at least early this week.

    I'm going to try to get the Gordon #2 or the bigmouth that was suggested earlier. Do you think one valve on the main is enough or should I try to attach more?

    If more how is that done, do I run a small pipe off the main to accommodate multiple air valves?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited October 2016
    One BigMouth has the venting capacity of two Gorton #2's. I'd use the Bigmouth. It is much better built and costs less than one Gorton #2. One Bigmouth is plenty for the length of main you have. Requires less headroom too. They are only available from Amazon. Here is the link:
    https://www.amazon.com/Barnes-Jones-Big-Mouth-Vent/dp/B01F26P13C/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476659838&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Barnes+and+Jones+Bigmouth+vent
    mike212
  • ttekushan_3
    ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 958
    It wouldn't be a bad idea to make sure the radiator valves are fully open. Anything other than fully open allows water to accumulate in the radiator until the cycle ends. The auto-feeder adds water to the boiler to compensate. Then it all comes back, flooding the boiler.

    Admittedly, this is often a noisy situation. But you never know. It's an inexpensive thing to check!
    terry
    mike212
  • mike212
    mike212 Member Posts: 50
    The radiators are a good idea to check, I did and they are all fully open. Ordered the BigMouth, will arrive Tuesday night, will try to install then.

    I'm not certain the big mouth will directly fit into the pipe fittings I have. I measured the circumference of the current pipe the current air vent is on and its 2.75 inches around where it screws into the current air vent.

    I know nothing more about plumbing and pipes than I've read over the last week. I assume if the BigMouth doesn't fit directly, I can head to the local plumbing store and purchase an adapter to make it connect? Will they need to know the circumference of the pipe to help me or is there a different measurement that is used as a standard?

    Also someone mentioned getting a new PSI gauge. Is that to be attached to the main pipe (near the vent) or somewhere on the boiler? My current gauge attached to / near the boiler, not the main vent.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    The BigMouth is 3/4" male. That 2.75 circumference is 1/2" pipe. You will need a 1/2" to 3/4" coupling to mount the Bigmouth.
    The 0-3 PSI gauge is mounted on the boiler, next to your current gauge. You can add a 1/4" Tee and a couple nipples to the Tee to remount your current gauge and the new one. Here is the 0-3PSI gauge most of us use:
    http://www.valworx.com/product/low-pressure-gauge-25-0-3-psi
    mike212
  • mike212
    mike212 Member Posts: 50
    @Fred I went to the plumbing store today and brought the current pipe I have attached to my old main air vent along with the new Bigmouth. The guy in the store was convinced that the Bigmouth cannot be used as a main vent.

    I ended up leaving without the fittings because he wouldn't let me put that on the main pipe - he said the Bigmouth is for a radiator only.

    I reading through the amazon link you sent it does sound like it is for use as the main vent as you stated. Can you just reconfirm I can use the Bigmouth off the main pipe as my main vent and it is not for a radiator? The guy shook my confidence since I know nothing about this. Thanks for all your help through this
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    @mike212 The Bigmouth is a re-designed trap for use as a Main Vent. @Sailah at Barnes and Jones, who is a member, on this site, designed and produced those specifically as a Main Vent, in response to many of us who felt the other main venting options were either too small, requiring we add multiple vents to our mains or too unreliable. Rest assured you have the right Main Vent!
    mike212SWEI
  • mike212
    mike212 Member Posts: 50
    Thanks @Fred . Much appreciated. Will go back and get the parts to install it today.

    Its hard to complain but I'm somewhat sad the weather changed... it's 80+ degrees again this week. Was hitting the high 30s overnight last week. Will need to wait a few days to take this for a test drive.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    No Problem. Tell your plumbing supply house that they may want to look into stocking the BigMouth and also the Barnes and Jones Vari-vent! At least they should familiarize themselves with them.
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    edited October 2016
    mike212 said:

    @Fred I went to the plumbing store today and brought the current pipe I have attached to my old main air vent along with the new Bigmouth. The guy in the store was convinced that the Bigmouth cannot be used as a main vent.

    I ended up leaving without the fittings because he wouldn't let me put that on the main pipe - he said the Bigmouth is for a radiator only.

    I reading through the amazon link you sent it does sound like it is for use as the main vent as you stated. Can you just reconfirm I can use the Bigmouth off the main pipe as my main vent and it is not for a radiator? The guy shook my confidence since I know nothing about this. Thanks for all your help through this

    Hi @mike212 ,

    I understand the confusion. It looks exactly like a radiator trap because that's what I based it on. And it functions in much the same way as a radiator trap or vent would. I.E. in the presence of steam it closes and when not, it opens. I'm just starting to get calls for the vent from my distributors and they are all confused about it too lol.

    The Big Mouth varies from a radiator trap in that the seal is a brass seating surface to silicone o-ring for an air tight seal. It also has a huge orifice to vent all the air.

    To install, you want a 3/4" to 1/2" coupling as @Fred mentioned. I also have a 1/2" tailpiece I can mail you that would be a direct fit if you don't want to mess around with the coupling. It reduces the capacity of the vent though.

    So get your coupling on there, then assemble the union nut on the tailpiece. Using a 5/8" allen (use a bolt head for a quickie one time use allen if you don't have one), thread that assembly down into the coupling. The place big mouth on tailpiece and tighten the union nut. Check for leaks. Any questions you can reach me at the office 781-963-8000 x 214
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
    mike212
  • mike212
    mike212 Member Posts: 50
    @Sailah Thanks! I got the pieces but don't have the 5/8" allen or a bolt of that size either. I'm going to head back out and try to pick one up tonight to get it all set up.

    Do you recommend teflon tape on the threads, something else, or nothing?

    Thanks.
  • Sailah
    Sailah Member Posts: 826
    You can tape or dope the pipe threads but don't do anything to the threads on the body
    Peter Owens
    SteamIQ
  • mike212
    mike212 Member Posts: 50
    I installed the Bigmouth last night and tested the system this morning. The main seems to be venting well and there is no wet steam around the vent area so this seems like a win. Installation of the Bigmouth was good advice. Thanks for coaching me along.

    Things still aren't running smooth overall yet but it feels like I'm making progress. I'm going to do some more testing and some more reading and try to move the diagnosing forward myself. Once I hit a wall I'll be back.