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Why are energy efficiency standards so far behind the technology?

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Comments

  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    njtommy said:

    Building a home like that is great and it drives the cost up big time.

    Passive solar design costs approximately nothing over conventional clueless design. The benefits are immense. Additional insulation does add cost, but still very little in the larger scheme of things. Upgrading from fiberglass batts to dense-packed cellulose (or dense-packed fiberglass) is pretty much a no-brainer in most North American climates. Reduced first cost (for smaller HVAC equipment) can offset this in many cases.

    The above will generally deliver a better ROI than you can get from any (legal) investment.
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    The electrical solar panels that people get put on for no money out of pocket are with a power purchase agreement.

    In my area it starts at .13 kWh and increases 2.9% per year for 20 year contract.

  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    There is something fishy about those programs if you ask me.

    I would never install a roof mount system. Ground mount sure no problem if I had the land to do so. Especially hydronic solar panels.

    I'm not willing the to give up my tree coverage in the summer time.

    I wasn't really thinking about passive solar. But yeah that makes sense to me. I would imagine that if the house faced south you could install bigger windows (with in reason) and use tile floors to allow more heat gain.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,756
    njtommy said:


    I wasn't really thinking about passive solar. But yeah that makes sense to me. I would imagine that if the house faced south you could install bigger windows (with in reason) and use tile floors to allow more heat gain.

    My father, grandfather and I built something like this back in the early 90's. 24x24 addition on my grandparents house. All open, vaulted ceilings and HUGE windows, slab on grade that was insulated underneath (can't remember how much) with tile on top. 2x6 construction and insulated to the best available at the time. Also had a couple skylights on the most south portion of the roof. He had to put electric baseboard heaters in because of code requirements for heating, but he never turned them on. That room never got truly cold. I think the lowest he saw in 10 years might have been 65 or so. It works if it's laid out correctly. other than super insulating (which should be done no matter what) it doesn't cost anything extra. Concentrating on equipment is a bad distraction in my opinion. Any equipment can be installed poorly and be horribly inefficient. We should concentrate on better design of houses AND systems rather than saying install high efficient equipment. This is EXACTLY were the government went wrong with this whole thing. Not much different than fuel efficient cars. If you drive like a maniac you get poor mileage, I work with a guy that only gets 30 MPG in a daily driven Prius. He has a 2 position throttle, on and off. Standards aren't the problem, people are. You can't regulate stupid.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098
    KC_Jones said:

    njtommy said:


    I wasn't really thinking about passive solar. But yeah that makes sense to me. I would imagine that if the house faced south you could install bigger windows (with in reason) and use tile floors to allow more heat gain.

    My father, grandfather and I built something like this back in the early 90's. 24x24 addition on my grandparents house. All open, vaulted ceilings and HUGE windows, slab on grade that was insulated underneath (can't remember how much) with tile on top. 2x6 construction and insulated to the best available at the time. Also had a couple skylights on the most south portion of the roof. He had to put electric baseboard heaters in because of code requirements for heating, but he never turned them on. That room never got truly cold. I think the lowest he saw in 10 years might have been 65 or so. It works if it's laid out correctly. other than super insulating (which should be done no matter what) it doesn't cost anything extra. Concentrating on equipment is a bad distraction in my opinion. Any equipment can be installed poorly and be horribly inefficient. We should concentrate on better design of houses AND systems rather than saying install high efficient equipment. This is EXACTLY were the government went wrong with this whole thing. Not much different than fuel efficient cars. If you drive like a maniac you get poor mileage, I work with a guy that only gets 30 MPG in a daily driven Prius. He has a 2 position throttle, on and off. Standards aren't the problem, people are. You can't regulate stupid.
    Maybe,
    But cars have come a very long way regarding emissions and fuel consumption since the 1960s.

    While a Ford model A can pull off 30MPG when driven right, it's terribly slow and has no A\C. My Sonic gets 40MPG fairly easy with the A\C on cruising at decent speeds. If you try hard, you can break 50MPG on a tank.

    Government regulations helped cars and trucks tremendously IMO.

    Imagine that co-worker of yours driving your 1970s Ford? What would he get, 12MPG driving like that?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    Fuel efficiency what's that you speak of? lol
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,756
    Chris you missed the point and your conclusion is incorrect if you talk to these types of people. Do you know why he drives like that? In his own words "because I can". He doesn't care how good of mileage he could get he cares that he can drive like a maniac and get better mileage. Also says that "in the old days" I couldn't drive like that because the cars got bad mileage. So on the old cars he drove more sensibly. I am not making this stuff up, this is the logic of people in the world.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098
    KC_Jones said:

    Chris you missed the point and your conclusion is incorrect if you talk to these types of people. Do you know why he drives like that? In his own words "because I can". He doesn't care how good of mileage he could get he cares that he can drive like a maniac and get better mileage. Also says that "in the old days" I couldn't drive like that because the cars got bad mileage. So on the old cars he drove more sensibly. I am not making this stuff up, this is the logic of people in the world.

    People do the same thing with heating and cooling.
    With drafty houses and lower efficiency equipment they ran the temperatures cooler in the winter, warmer in the summer. But now they don't because they can.

    Didn't Dan post statistics a while back showing people are still spending the same money to heat and cool their homes as they did 30 years ago?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    Like my one neighbor he has propane for heat and hot water. Mean while we have NG on the street. It would literally almost nothing to convert. The gas company runs the line to the house for free.
    KC_Jones
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited February 2016
    It's probably a good thing that you guys are taking this thread off topic. I really don't know what the OP's motive is/was but nothing constructive is coming out of it (at least not that I can see). He says he's not affiliated with any manufacturer in the heating industry, yet he sites one Brand as the Gold Standard, he says he doesn't want to talk about technology, yet he brings every discussion back to technology, he says he wants to know why legislation lags behind technology, yet he wants to exclude any discussion on the politics of any and all legislation (I think he calls it "people's perception of a Conspiracy", to paraphrase him. he challenges everyone's input but seemingly expects everyone to believe him. His affiliations remain suspect to me. How long are you guys going to humor him? The OP needs to come clean with who he is and exactly what he is trying to accomplish. It may be believable, it may not.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    edited February 2016
    @Fred. I think it's just something to talk about and bring up the subject that steam heat sucks and isn't efficient as hydronic or forced hot dust. Lol
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    njtommy said:

    @Fred. I think it's just something to talk about and bring up the subject that steam heat sucks and isn't efficient as hydronic or forced hot dust. Lol

    OK, you must be on his payroll too. I won't believe you if you say otherwise! :)
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098
    njtommy said:

    @Fred. I think it's just something to talk about and bring up the subject that steam heat sucks and isn't efficient as hydronic or forced hot dust. Lol

    Steam is hydronic.
    That's really getting annoying anymore... :)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    Lol

    Steam just hurts like hell when you brush up against it. Lol
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098
    njtommy said:

    Lol



    Steam just hurts like hell when you brush up against it. Lol

    (Christopher Walken accent) You, must be, mature, when around, steam......

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    njtommywogpa67Sailah
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    It's very hard to hold the those curse words back when working on steam. Lol
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098
    njtommy said:

    It's very hard to hold the those curse words back when working on steam. Lol

    Oh,
    So when it comes to steam you're more of a Samuel L Jackson kind of guy.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    Lol yes.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    @ChrisJ
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098







    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    njtommyvaporvac
  • Chester
    Chester Member Posts: 83
    ChrisJ said:

    njtommy said:

    I'm not sure how the solar panel thing works with pushing power back to the grid, but I can say they are being installed everywhere and on a good amount of houses. A good buddy of mine just had them install on his house I think it will cost him around 40k or so by the time he pays his system off.

    From what I understand, they limit you to the amount you typically consume so the panels are intended to cancel out your energy bill. However, you often hear about selling power to the electric company, but they don't want you doing that. You can have a huge roof, but you're only allowed to install enough panels to primarily feed your own stuff.

    There's also problems if a panel gets damaged, I believe they all need to be matched so if your panel is no longer made, tough noogies.

    This is my understanding of it and it could be skewed.

    Also not sure on what the environmental impact of making the panels is. I've heard it's terrible but don't know if I can believe that or not.
    The economics of rooftop solar are kind of crazy.

    Let's say you live in MA and your local utility is National Grid. As a residential ratepayer your all-in electricity cost is around $0.18/killowatt-hour. That includes the cost of energy (the wholesale cost of the actual electricity), plus transmission, distribution and a whole lot of societal costs such as low-income energy assistance, etc. that is embedded in your power bill.

    MA law says that if you install rooftop solar the utility has to pay you the full retail rate for what you provide to the grid. So when the sun's shining and you're selling excess power to the grid they pay you $0.18/kwh.

    Right now, the wholesale cost of power in New England is about $0.03/kwh. So the question is who's picking up the extra $0.15/kwh? The answer is that it shows up in everybody else's utility bills (and tax bills). How do you feel about paying your neighbors to put panels on their roofs?

    It's hard to understand why the rest of us should be forced to pay 6 times the actual market cost of electricity. The region's grid is already pretty low carbon (half zero-carbon and half natural gas). The right way to do solar is to do a competitive RFP for utility-scale projects, where solar can compete at around $0.04/kwh.



    ChrisJ
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Sounds like it came straight from the 2013 EEI position paper, which has now become the default position of pretty much every IOU in the country. Follow the money...
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    It's not a matter of what you said about steam. I just known Chris will defend steam systems till he is blue in the face. Hence we get steam memes.
    AJinCT
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    Have any of you steam gurus ever given any thought about generating electricity with your boiler? Is it even feasible? At the cost of NG verses the cost of electricity today I'll bet it's cheaper than .12 cents a Kilowatt.

    Tripping on NyQuil so excuse the wild thought.

    njtommy
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    I'm asking the steam gurus if it's feasible to accomplish with their Exisiting boiler. It's already there.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,170
    AJinCT said:

    I do love the heat pumps

    Well, that explains a lot. Must have been some pretty tasty Kool-Aid.
    AJinCT said:

    Steamhead, You could also buy a decent mod/con that's going to last. Sure you can handle moving them around, I'm just surprised anyone actually wants to compared to a mod/con that's the size of a suitcase.

    Because they will outlast any mod-con, that's why. In Europe, as I understand it, if a mod-con more than about five years old breaks down you have to replace the entire unit. Cast-iron lasts for decades if properly cared for.
    AJinCT said:

    Hatterasguy, Steam is not the point of this thread, but I didn't say all steam had to go. I just said it's not as efficient as hot water,

    You haven't given us the numbers to back this up. I asked you before, have you made a truly scientific comparison? Have you built two identical buildings where one has steam and one has hot-water? And since you also say that
    AJinCT said:

    Forced air is more efficient.

    you would have to build three test buildings.

    Until you have done this, and the results have been independently verified by a disinterested party, you're just blowing smoke.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098
    Hey look no statistics on mini split MTBF. There's a surprise.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098
    Ok, I'll be fair.

    I'll provide my data, and then I expect to see something from you other than your thoughts and opinions.

    Now, some of the data I'm providing was published in the ASHRAE Journal back in 1994 by William L. Holladay so it's a little dated but it's still fairly accurate. There's also a 2012 article written by Martin Hollday on Green Building Advisor.


    http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/choosing-energy-efficient-refrigerator

    You argued these machines are smaller, so it's not a fair comparison. My point was they use less energy than modern refrigerators. You were, talking about saving energy right?









    OK there's my data.

    Let's see yours, on ANYTHING.





    P.S.
    I heat my house for less with steam heat maintaining the same temperature as my next door neighbor does with forced hot air. His furnace is less than 10 years old.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Harvey Ramer
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    AJinCT said:

    The MSHPs average a COP of about 3, so you're looking at 120% average on natural gas, before you account for nuclear and renewables.

    That math is quite region-specific. Out here we need a COP above six in order to make an electric heatpump less expensive to operate than a NG-fueled mod/con.
    ChrisJ
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    edited February 2016
    What are the rates where you are?
    @SWEI
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098
    edited February 2016
    @AJinCT

    Here ya go!
    5.6 cu. ft. capacity ENERGY STAR

    Brand new SMALLER (5.6cuft vs a 6-7cuft monitor top) and it's even manual defrost.





    Imagine that?

    a 1935 6 cubic foot, manual defrost monitor top consumes practically the same amount of power (20.3kwh per month) as a 2016 5.6 cubic foot manual defrost mini-fridge (19.6kwh per month).

    Actually, the monitor top for it's size is slightly cheaper to run!


    BUT HOW CAN THAT BE!?!? The technology simply didn't exist back then according to you.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    KC_Jones
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098
    edited February 2016









    .
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    njtommy said:

    What are the rates where you are?

    @SWEI

    From January 2016 bills: NG $0.501 per therm small residential and $0.406 per therm light commercial. Residential electric $0.138 - $0.177 (depending on usage tier and season) and light commercial electric $0.162 - $0.170 depending on time of year.

    Rates above include all variable costs -- assessments, adjustments, surcharges, taxes, etc. but not the monthly customer fee (currently $5.68 for single phase electric, $9.62 for small 3-phase, $12.42 for residential NG, and $21.60 for light commercial NG -- again inclusive of taxes, etc.)

    Hard selling efficiency here at the moment, except to customers on LPG.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
    I thought .12 cents was bad. A kilo.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    Wow your NG price is cheap.
    Last year I was 1.34 per therm this year it's
    1.09 a therm plus$ 10 service fee.
    Electric is .09-.11.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,170
    edited February 2016
    AJinCT said:

    How does one NOT sell efficiency when a Navien boiler is a couple hundred bucks LESS than an inefficient 400 pound clunker from Weil Mclain before you even get to paying the contractor to haul that clunker in?

    The cast-iron boiler will in all likelihood still be running faithfully 20-30 years from now. And you won't have to pay for increasing the gas service capacity which is often needed when you're heating hot water in real time, rather than with a tank. Or for completely re-working the venting system.

    The Navien? Who knows how long that will last?
    AJinCT said:

    The numbers and the physics are there. Re-heating 65 degree air is more efficient than re-heating 120 or 140 or 160 degree water, which is more efficient than re-heating 200 degree condensate. That's physics.

    What you fail to mention is that there is a lot less water in a steam system to be heated than in a hot-water system. So that balances out.

    As for scorched-error, you can move more heat more distance and more efficiently using a water-based system. The average duct system loses about 20% of what goes into it. This is one of several articles I've found on the subject:

    http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/49899/No-Duct-System-Losses-by-2050-ACEEE-Thinks-So

    Even if you put a 98% furnasty (whose rating I would question) onto a typical duct system, you would still not do nearly as well as a water-based system.

    Bottom line is, you need to back up your position with some real-world testing, as we've described earlier. No one is going to take your word on anything just because you're an "engineer". You want to prove your point? Build the houses.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098
    @Steamhead
    Furnasty! Nice.

    Furnasty for forced hot error.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,170
    ChrisJ said:

    @Steamhead
    Furnasty! Nice.

    Furnasty for forced hot error.

    I can't take credit for that. Someone wrote to Dan years ago and used that term, and it caught on.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 16,098
    I'd like to see a system like Gerry Gill's minitube tested for overall efficiency. Throw 1" or 2" fiberglass on all of the piping and see how it does.

    Steam with low mass convectors and small piping all very well insulated. I'd say it would make a forced hot air system look disgusting, but they do that all on their own. Anyone that has ever looked in a duct knows that. Especially ones mounted in the floors which is common.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Canucker
  • RJMCTAFO
    RJMCTAFO Member Posts: 113
    Most oil houses should probably convert to something else, and no one should be heating just with oil.

    This statement is ludicrous and insults the work I have been doing for the last 15 years.

    I am located in CT. I have houses with oil fired heating systems that use very small amounts of fuel. The cost to convert to LP in our area with a modcon would NEVER see a ROI. NAT is not an option.

    I live in Coventry. Have a family of four living in a 1400 sq ft house built in the 50s. 2x4 construction. Blew 20" of cellulose in the attic on top of the R-13. 20 year old windows. Heat and hot water with the thermostat set at 71* and I used 436 gallons last year. Cost me slightly less than $800.

    Have a 2300 sq ft house in Tolland on oil. (Pic of install is my profile)
    Installed it this December. He just got a delivery Friday of 186 gallons. Heat and hot water.
    With the current price of oil that means he got heat and hot water for that period for only $297.

    The majority of my parents oil customers use lees than 600 gallons a year.

    Don't make broad statements that sound foolish. People here see and install a lot more than you "read about".
    ChrisJSailah

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