How to choose a good hydronic heating/cooling contractor...

Mark Eatherton · March 2015

There has been some discussion lately about how a homeowner knows whether the person and or company they are dealing with is qualified and skilled to do a proper job of "Place task here", including boiler replacements, hydronic additions, radiant additions etc.

Inasmuch as 95% of the world comes here seeking answers, I think it would be a great idea to come up with a list of questions that the homeowners could and should ask of their bidding contractors so that they at least have a chance of getting the system of their dreams that works without issues and doesn't cost an arm and a leg in energy.

My hope is that Dan will add these recommendations into a category that homeowners coming here seeking advice can use in moving forward, and ask their potential contractors the right questions, and get the right answers to aid in the proper installation of a system. I will kick it off with something I found on the web the other day, that is a good start, and let other willing contractors contribute to the list. Our way of paying it forward if you will. I will eventually take the recommendations, and incorporate them into a document that the RPA will offer to homeowners to assist them in making their decisions about what contractor to use for their hydronic projects.

http://www.deltafaucet.com/inspiredliving/infographic/12-things-ask-contractor-saying-youre-hired

DanHolohan · March 2015

Great idea, Mark. I'm happy to make it a permanent part of the site and draw attention to it through the newsletter.

What do you think, guys and gals? What are the right questions to ask?

Thanks, Mark.

Steamhead · March 2015

Here are a few to start:

1. How did you select this boiler? (answers: if steam, by the installed radiation plus some extra pickup if some rads were removed; if hot-water, by a heat-loss calculation)

2. I have a steam system and part of the house doesn't heat well. How do we fix this? (WRONG answer: raise the steam pressure)

3. I have a steam system and the banging is terrible! (WRONG answers: 1- they all do that, 2- rip it out and put in forced-air)

Your turn.............

Ironman · March 2015

DanHolohan said:
Great idea, Mark. I'm happy to make it a permanent part of the site and draw attention to it through the newsletter.

What do you think, guys and gals? What are the right questions to ask?

Thanks, Mark.

1. Definitely ask for references and photos of other jobs.
2. Check licensing. Particularly specialty licensing: plumbing, HVAC, electrical.
3. Ask what specific specialized training he has: radiant, solar, manufacturers, etc. as it relates to the proposed work.
4. How is he determining the size of equipment or components? Rule of thumb, same as the old, heat loss calc, radiation survey, WAG?
5. Ask if he knows what the universal hydronics formula is and can he explain it. This one will eliminate probably every hack out there.
6. Does he have a digital combustion analyzer and has he been trained how to use it? This could be asked about any other specific tool that's mandatory as it relates to the type of job.
7. Does he have insurance.
8. If it's a boiler replacement, will the necessary accessories be included a: fill/back flow, expansion tank, new circ, MBR. If it's steam: LWCO, proper header,venting, skimming,etc.

Gordy · March 2015

Beyond the questions pictures of work. It's not hard to tell profesionalism from a hack. Some good wall of shame hack pics verses a well done wall of pride job to give the novice homeowner a gauge as to how a job should turn out, Sadly some work can look nice but function improperly.

Avoid the bid that says I can put heat in your house for x dollars. Lack of details. And i don't just mean what boiler I'll be installing.

Canucker · March 2015

Good information already, my only question is whether there is a similar list of things to ask or watch for when service is scheduled? I can usually find someone to service the fire side of the heat exchanger but I get blank stares when the water side is mentioned. That never seems to come into the equation when service or replacement is discussed but I know it's discussed here.

Paul48 · March 2015

I would think the first question should attempt to sort out the qualified contractors from the "Wall of Shame" Rembrandts.

1. Do you consider your company to be heating system specialists?

Paul48 · March 2015

And the rest of the questions should sort through the BS. It is a starting point, and to sort out the contractors that don't know anything about mod/cons, or modern heating systems. If an honest man, said that they install a couple cast-iron boilers a year, there's nothing wrong with that.

Gordy · March 2015

The problem is everyone comes "here" " after" they hire the knuckle head, or buy their oversized boiler, or install their 500' radiant loops that don't heat.

jonny88 · March 2015

How to choose a good contractor?
Another question is how many customers are willing to pay for a good contractor.
Show all the pics you want but a good salesman beats you a lot of the time.
If I was to ask a ? it would be are you willing to stand behind your work and guarantee everything will work just like it does in your pic..Always nice to find a good customer but like a previous post said by the time they come here it is to late.Experiencing it right now as a matter of fact and it is very sad what some people to do houses.(dont convert steam to a hydronic system unless your contractor really knows what he is doing).

SWEI · March 2015

Dan had an article on the last iteration of the site called "How to replace boiler without getting steamed." There's some info on hot water there that we might use as a starting point.

Here's a snapshot.

Jean-David Beyer · March 2015

LWCO for hot water systems as well as steam.

Harvey Ramer · March 2015

Whatever is done concerning recommendations on who to hire or licensing or anything of that sort, the young entrepreneur should be kept in mind. If the gauntlet one must face in order to strike out on their own is to mountainous, it will keep many otherwise excellent professionals, from being able to offer their individual services and provide healthy competition in the marketplace. To many times a tradesman's professionalism is judged soley by the amount of time spent doing a certain task.

In my opinion, there are a couple things a customer should inquire upon.

First and foremost, does the contractor posses the capitol to see the job to completion and handle any unfortunate mishaps. In keeping with this train of thought, also ensure that the contractor has adequate liability insurance and any other insurance the job entails.

References are the gold standard for assessing an unknown's quality of work, business ethics, ect..

As far as choosing someone specifically for hydronics, be very interactive. Strike up a conversation on the subject. Discuss different systems; Rads, Baseboard, Radiant Floor or Ceiling. Ask the contractor how the different systems perform and what can be expected from a comfort standpoint. Ask him which boiler best matches which system and why. Understand that every hydronic system has a unique character and that your contractor is in essence, the manufacturer and engineer of your comfort system. Being as such, make sure you are also receiving a decent labor warranty on the entire system from the contractor. Proceed with caution if a contractor answers a question with this reply; "well we've been doing it this way for 30 years" he likely doesn't even know why. Remember, this is an interview and every contractor you talk to may not be a true hydronic professional. Most hydronic professionals are just looking for someone to talk to about their profession. A good one will answer your questions promptly and directly with an explanation if you are willing to listen.

If you just really talk to the contractor and pay attention to how he answers your questions, you will know within 15 minutes whether you have the right one.

Paul48 · March 2015

Beware the fast shuffle.....No time to talk, very busy, and needs a down payment to get things going.

don_9 · March 2015

How about a section that we as contractor can qualified a customer from a tire kicker.I often hear most say that a load calc should be done n i agree.however i am not going to give away my time to do one on what most people assume is a free estimate.free for them not for me.so let me ask would a homeowner be willing to pay for me to come out n do all these thing that you all speak of? And if not then does that not make them a non-qualifing customer? To many demands for a free estimate if you ask me.

Paul48 · March 2015

How about a brochure explaining the process you will use to do the work correctly for the customer. I don't think a heat loss calc should be free, but it should be credited back if you do the job. Everything could be laid out in the brochure. Brochure dropped off....Call back.....Ball Park estimate....Call Back..... Begin the process.

Gordy · March 2015

Problem with this is the way someone is going to find this check list on this website by googling heating help. Usually the deed is done, and the list will be a check list as an after thought.

Mark Eatherton · March 2015

I am going to post the condensed version on the RPA web site as well. We are no where near as large as this site as it pertains to SEO location, but all exposure is better than none.

Ironman · March 2015

don said:
How about a section that we as contractor can qualified a customer from a tire kicker.I often hear most say that a load calc should be done n i agree.however i am not going to give away my time to do one on what most people assume is a free estimate.free for them not for me.so let me ask would a homeowner be willing to pay for me to come out n do all these thing that you all speak of? And if not then does that not make them a non-qualifing customer? To many demands for a free estimate if you ask me.

I agree that it shouldn't be done for free - I wouldnt. My approach is to know the APPROXIMATE heat loss based upon the type of construction and the square footage of the house. This takes me less than 5 minutes on site. If you've been doing this for very long, you can probably just look at the house and know within 10-15% what the heat loss is. I'm talking about a replacement here, but even on new construction it's about the same: let me see the plans or spend a few minutes looking at it after its roughed framed and I'll get close enough for an ESTIMATE. If they like my price and what I'm offering, then they can sign an agreement and I'll do an EXACT heat loss, design and cost. They don't get these without signing on the dotted line and making a deposit.

Don't give your skills away for free in business! Charity is another thing altogether. Be very giving there.

Jean-David Beyer · March 2015

"No time to talk, very busy, and needs a down payment to get things going. "

Trouble is, someone like this will also have no time to talk, be very busy, etc., when it comes time to deal with problems.

Canucker · March 2015

The problem as I see it, and @Hatterasguy, @Gordy have pointed out, how familiar with hydronics do you have to be to know whether you got a good installation and is it realistic to expect someone not in the industry, to be? Maybe the best way to figure out the questions to ask is to list what you need to do, as professionals, then see if the questions would match what the average homeowner would know?(It's a big list, the flow chart would be long) I believe the homeowner has some responsibility to learn about the systems in their home but is it realistic to expect people to be? FWIW, I don't believe anyone who has spent any time on this website is an average homeowner or installer, but unfortunately you are a minority.

Tinman · March 2015

Call me : )

Canucker · March 2015

Stephen Minnich said:
Call me : )

I would, but I don't think I can afford the 7 hr travel time. Especially If you had to go back for something.

(Although, based on the knowledge base I've seen around my area, it might be worth the cost to get what I want

)

RobG · March 2015

As the world is completely internet based now (I don't even have a phonebook at home anymore), if there were a way to get the vetting process as the first thing that comes up on Google when searching for tradespersons people might have a look and gain an understanding. As it is now they come here after they've been taken. I don't know how it could be done, but it would be nice.

RJMCTAFO · March 2015

If I get a call for an estimate I usually speak to the person over the phone to feel them out. I explain that I can look at the job and give them an approximate price that is on letterhead. On the bottom it states this price is based on incomplete information. If they would like to continue with a signed contract then I will perform the heat calc. The majority of the houses in my area are 1500 to 2500 sq. feet. I am usually the only contractor not offering a 4 section boiler.

Have actually been told a few times that if I knew what I was doing I wouldn't need to do a heat loss. Why do you need to do that when the other guy was so sure about the boiler size without it? I usually don't get those jobs. Then return a few years later for service and find a 125k pin boiler in a house with a roughly 50k heat loss.

Stepping over dollars to pick up dimes.

SWEI · March 2015

Pretty much the norm around here. 80-125k furnaces are the standard for 1,000-1,500 square foot houses. The go-to technical guy at a certain large supplier of a very well known national brand told me "we always use 35 BTU's per square foot around here." Here being El Paso, TX.

Gordy · March 2015

To the benign you can oversize to a point, and never have to worry about someone complaining about no heat. Your covered. The owner buys a 90+ efficiency furnace,boiler, and thinks his wallet is getting heavier through the rewards of their HE purchase. The supplier puts little effort into equipment sizing everyone is happy. The owner never realizing the missed full potential of proper sizing.

SWEI · March 2015

We spend at least 75% of our time with new clients educating them. If they actually pay attention, we own them.

DanHolohan · March 2015

So this is what we have on the Main site. Let me know if you'd like to add to it.

remodel · March 2015

This is a great thread and being drawn into this pitfall myself for my own project. My two cents....the more you question the contractor/supply house etc. and the more "they" get frustrated with your questions, no thank you is in order.

To SWEI and Hatterasguy...before I came upon this site I was sold a nice MOD/CON from a licensed master plumber with a great local supply house doing the heat loss on fintube in an older house with an newer addition. The convectors didn't match real well and the heat loss came back at 52 btu/sf (after I had short cycling problems I started coming hear) and the pump was installed on the wrong side of PONPC. Point is I got taken or I didn't ask enough questions, but I hope someone else has the smarts to come hear first!

4Johnpipe · March 2015

I usually ask my potential customers "what would you like to know"? Then I shut up and listen...

DanHolohan · March 2015

4Johnpipe said:
I usually ask my potential customers "what would you like to know"? Then I shut up and listen...

Ah, maturity! No real substitute for that. Thanks.

4Johnpipe · March 2015

Listening to what they don't say can be valuable. A lot of people get a lot of information from the interwebs...Turn that information into a showcase for our knowledge...

Hilly · March 2015

How many people have ever really had an 'undersized' boiler and couldn't get enough heat? I know we've seen cases where people undersized with instant hot water tanks and threw them into a hydronic system. But Residentially has anyone ever had to go in on a bad job and add secondary heat source or change out an existing boiler to a bigger one? Secondly has anyone ever done a heatloss and been bite in the butt because it turned out hey undersized it? I don't remember reading any cases like that on here.

Canucker · March 2015

Perhaps the solution needs to come from the industry? What I mean is that most homeowners won't have the depth of knowledge to truly vet a contractor, and like @icesailor says, hydronics is forgiving, if the customer has heat, they'll be happy with the job, no matter whether it runs efficiently or not. You can get a reference from these people but the work may still be sub-standard.
It has been pointed out that the truly knowledgeable will be able to see a set up and know if its installed properly, so maybe there needs to be a database of installers that have shown to have the skills necessary to properly install boilers? I picture something like an admission to university or getting a PhD, where you apply for entrance/defend your thesis. You would get your work scrutinized by knowledgeable individuals(people that know what questions to ask) and upon measuring up, admitted to the database. Is it economical/worth it to do? I don't know, but guessing from what I can see, not likely, as it hasn't been done yet.
I would gladly hand over a cheque to quite a few individuals that frequent this site, as they have proven that they know how to do this work to the highest level, and support the install. It has taken me 3 yrs of being a part of this website and reading as much as I could get my hands on to realize that, and I'm not sure the average homeowner wants to expend that much effort. I did, because I find it fascinating, and I can transfer the knowledge to my day job, believe it or not.(I am still no expert in hydronics, in any way)
I guess the question is, how do you take the knowledge on display here at heatinghelp and get it to the populous at large?

Canucker · March 2015

That's the point, they probably can't. But you could, and others in the industry, like yourself, could. You could ask the questions the homeowner would never know but are important to a successful install, get them to justify their choices, show you the math. And know if something was amiss. I don't know whether is feasible, that's why I asked. I know not everyone would pay a premium for a contractor like that but I would. It would be nice to have a searchable database of installers that have gone through questioning and testing/inspection to confirm that they are in fact more than competent, not just licensed.
I think anecdotal evidence that's presented in the forums suggests that it isn't common to have a good install, especially when it comes to hydronics.

hot_rod · March 2015

Tougher than it sounds to get hydronic installers certified.
We tried that via the RPA back in the late 1990, early 2000's with a Radiant Basics and Radiant Advanced certification.

We ended up with a few hundred certified installers across the country.

The Canadians have some hydronic certification programs going but it is not wide spread across all of Canada. Western Canada has been more successful driven by Dave Hughes at NAIT, Robert Bean, and some of the progressive wholesalers out there. NAIT has some hydronic classes and online hydronic courses. Many of the wholesalers up in Canada have their employees go through the online courses.

It would take some research and understanding of hydronic design fundamentals for the average homeowner to select the truly knowledgable installers.

I like Marks idea to generate a list of pre-qualifing questions, that is a good start.

Here is a link to some good, free, technical journals. issue 12 Hydronic Fundamentals would be an excellent one to start with, for you and the plumber

http://www.caleffi.com/usa/en-us/technical-magazine

Mark Eatherton · March 2015

Hatteras, I am really curious as to why it is that you keep poo pooing this thread? Are you afraid of an educated consumer? I am quite perplexed about why it is that you continually put negative energy into something that we are trying to use to educate the consumers in general? The name of this site is Heating Help.com for a good reason.

Care to splain?

I'm not judging, just curious as to why you view the consumers in such poor light and don't give them any credit for at least asking questions and trying to further themselves. I seriously doubt that any of them are automobile mechanics either, but when they are buy a used car, they can see the product and ask questions about the vehicles maintenance, accidents etc. And they know to lift the hood and take a peek under the hood and listen to the engine run.

I don't expect these folks to be able to look at a completed system and say whether or not the components are in the right places, or in the right orientation, but I have seen ONE job (1) in my 39 years of spelunking around boiler rooms where the piping was perfectly installed and all of the components were so screwed up that the system barely put out any comfort.

If we post pictures of what a good job looks like, with clean soldered, wiped joints and straight pipes running at right angles, with proper pipe supports etc. they will be able to discern the difference between a hack and a pro, if it even goes that far.

I teach for a living, so I am not afraid to educate. Asking the right questions up front will cull most hacks immediately. We will never completely cure all hydronic ills before they happen, but if we can help some consumers avoid getting burned, even just a few, then I feel we've done a good job.

Enlighten us please...

ME

DanHolohan · March 2015

Mark Eatherton said:
Hatteras, I am really curious as to why it is that you keep poo pooing this thread? Are you afraid of an educated consumer? I am quite perplexed about why it is that you continually put negative energy into something that we are trying to use to educate the consumers in general? The name of this site is Heating Help.com for a good reason.

Care to splain?

I'm not judging, just curious as to why you view the consumers in such poor light and don't give them any credit for at least asking questions and trying to further themselves. I seriously doubt that any of them are automobile mechanics either, but when they are buy a used car, they can see the product and ask questions about the vehicles maintenance, accidents etc. And they know to lift the hood and take a peek under the hood and listen to the engine run.

I don't expect these folks to be able to look at a completed system and say whether or not the components are in the right places, or in the right orientation, but I have seen ONE job (1) in my 39 years of spelunking around boiler rooms where the piping was perfectly installed and all of the components were so screwed up that the system barely put out any comfort.

If we post pictures of what a good job looks like, with clean soldered, wiped joints and straight pipes running at right angles, with proper pipe supports etc. they will be able to discern the difference between a hack and a pro, if it even goes that far.

I teach for a living, so I am not afraid to educate. Asking the right questions up front will cull most hacks immediately. We will never completely cure all hydronic ills before they happen, but if we can help some consumers avoid getting burned, even just a few, then I feel we've done a good job.

Enlighten us please...

ME

Well said, Mark.

Mark Eatherton · March 2015

HR said "Tougher than it sounds to get hydronic installers certified.
We tried that via the RPA back in the late 1990, early 2000's with a Radiant Basics and Radiant Advanced certification.

We ended up with a few hundred certified installers across the country. "

For what it's worth, the RPA has resurrected their certification program, but this round it will carry the recognition of the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) flag. This is not a mandatory program, and will never be thanks to the effort of the DOJ (constraint of trade), but by taking this test, it will prove the holder has a significant knowledge base in the design and installation of hydronic systems, not just radiant. And it still isn't a guarantee of quality work. Craftsmanship can't be legislated. Only referred to as a "workman like manner".

Once up and running, successful applicants will be listed on numerous web sites showing those who have successfully completed the certification process for designers and installers. This will go a long ways towards true professionalism in our industry, but it still won't prevent the trunk slamming hacks from plying their trades.

The complete program is slated for delivery before Q-3 of 2015, and is being developed by the folks at ASSE,using the Open Consensus process with subject matter experts from our industry, some of whom frequent this web site. It initially will include solar thermal designers and installers, hydronic heating and cooling system designers and installers, and will eventually include a certification program for the Authority Having Jurisdiction. After all, a code or standard is only as good as the people who are enforcing it. Our hope is that the AHJ's will recognize the value of this program, and will require it as a pre-requiset for obtaining licensure in the jurisdiction.

Interested parties can join the RPA's efforts and help in the crafting of standards, codes, certification and inspection of the worlds most efficient systems. We also have a powerful presence in Washington DC, always keeping an eye out for our industry.

The future of hydronics has never been brighter. Join us in our efforts to strengthen our industry, won't you?

ME

DanHolohan · March 2015

I'm in!

How to choose a good hydronic heating/cooling contractor...

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