How to choose a good hydronic heating/cooling contractor...

Mark Eatherton

Yes, you certainly are, and we thank you for your continued support of our industry efforts.

Thank you for your contributions Dan.

ME

DanHolohan

Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

Mark Eatherton

Thanks for the clarification. I could argue with you over the licensure claim. I know MANY licensed contractors that I wouldn't let put a water bowl into a dog house. Licensing doesn't always mean they are professionals.

There are very few requirements to obtain a license. If you can put fog on a mirror, have proof of liability and workers comp insurance, pay their fee and BINGO, you are in business. Even those jurisdictions that do require a "test" allow open code book testing, and literally NONE of it is based on hydronics. It's all based on moving air. Some of the worst work I've seen as an expert witness was done by a licensed contractor. Heck, most places don't even require a license, or even an inspection.

We as an industry have a long way to go before we can be considered anywhere near perfect.

Our job of education starts with the consumers, and goes all the way through and to the authority having jurisdiction. Our job will never be done.

ME

Charlie from wmass

Until there is a license with real testing requirements they are just revenue generators. Massachusetts has no license for hydronics once you and the fuel, electric, and water to the system. There is also no code enforcement aside from energy code for insulating piping in unconditioned spaces. The Connecticut license I need to have to install boilers had 0 questions regarding steam boilers for the one I drew when I took the exam. I would also bet most people who visit and comment here, whether contractors or home owners could pass it.

Charlie from wmass

The License does remove the total hacks, I think the point of the thread is to give tips to go from licensed hacks to people you have a better shot of a decent job with, and people with some sort of way to be held accountable if the job is terrible. The largest oil company in Berkshire County installs all their steam boilers with propress copper, and their installers have "DeadMen" bumper stickers on their service vans. It would be best to list questions you would like to be able to answer as an installer so the consumer would understand you understand. My little rant was counter to positive forward movement of the thread, but I needed to get it out this morning.
I would like the people to ask me "How many threads should you be able to start by hand on a fitting for a proper thread?
or Will I need a drop header and why? or What is the minimum CO2 level to know I am getting good combustion? or What is the unit of measure for gas pressure in residential settings? or What is the minimum pressure required for that power burner to function as tested?"
Any of these questions will get the hack, licensed or not to scratch their head and get restless and alert the observer they are in the presents of a B@##s&%*&r.

DanHolohan

There's also this, which might help.

RobG

Some things that I find are that people wait until the equipment dies (in the middle of winter) to find a contactor to replace it. Many times the one who gets the job is the ONE who actually shows up to give a price. Many contractors will promise to come out for an estimate and not show up, others show up and never get back with a price. HO's will change the oil in their car regularly but not think twice (or even once) about PM on their heating equipment. How do we get ahead of that?

j a_2

Rinnai, for one ,has a trigger, thats shows MAINTENANCE REQUIRED…Car dealerships send friendly no cost emails or postcards,when they know maint is required…As for boilers that don’t have the technology and you are the installer,make sure you get it registered on line, or by sending in the card, for all its worth…Then inform the new owner by email or postcard when its time…I know its easy to say, but in the real world its very hard to do….Give the owner his portion of the homeowners instructions…That also tells him what to do…You can only help so much….Homeowners do have a responsibility,to maintain there home in a safe manner….

nicholas bonham-carter

Peerless has done a good job with their literature, "the color of steam", and maybe other manufacturers as well. By the time the homeowner reads it, the oversized boiler may already have been installed.--NBC

josieT

I'll give the 'ignorant' homeowner's point of view of what I wished I would have known.

#1 - Any contractor who makes a recommendation without knowing the intricacies of the house - air infiltration, age, plaster or sheet rock - can't do an adequate heat loss.

If you have bad windows like I do (old single pane), and they don't even mention that, something is seriously wrong. Or even to not check the age of the windows if you have double pane is not wise. The best contractor will also check if you did an energy audit to assess the infiltration.


#2 Ask to see the heatloss estimates. I used this layman's calculator after the fact to do my own 'dumb' estimate. http://usa.hudsonreed.com/btu-calculator It's not manual J. But it gives some ballpark. Make sure he/she does a thorough heat loss. Most make a wild educated guess.

#3 Don't be shy to see their work. A happy client will be delighted to send pictures or do a reference call.

#4 Do they know all the heating emitter options and when to use what? I had many plumbers (even third generation licensed plumbers) who never heard of panel rads. Recessed sunrads are very popular in my area (long island), but recessing them while looks better does require additional BTU to be added to the heat loss. Also I was surprised to find to find out that panel rads were equivalent in price to sunrads and much nicer looking. The ones who did know of them were quick to say it's too expensive probably because of lack of experience.

#5 Do you really need a combi boiler? When I got quotes, 4 out of 6 people recommended a combi. None explained the hot water limitations. I would never do a combi boiler in a house over 1500 sq feet. They don't save that much space and need more servicing which isn't cheap. They are all the rage where I live. I had two people who went the traditional route and I unfortunately thought that since they were in the minority, so their plan was subpar. Majority doesn't always rule.

#6 - Be careful about radiant floor staple up under wood floor. It sounds good but what a mess if not done well. Also the creaking pex is irritating.

#7 More zones isn't necessarily better. I have 8 zones for a 2000 sq ft house. I needed 2, max 3. The added zones add no real value. My house isn't so big that I need run it cooler in one part vs another. I thought I'd run downstairs lower at night. It doesn't pay and then it takes all the more longer to heat it back up.

#8 Don't ever ever ever let a contractor diss a steam system especially in an old house. If they do this, run! Back to #1 - every house is different! There is no one size fits all rule.

#9. While price shouldn't be the decider, I found that high price doesn't always equate with getting the best result.

#10 Be an educated consumer on any major changes to a house. Don't put your trust completely in a contractor. They won't live in the house. They won't be paying the bill for the heating system. Don't feel that someone with a business knows more that you can learn. I'm not much more educated in hydronics than long time plumbers. Also every single person you talk to will have a different opinion. I think i've talked to 20 'experts' on my situation, each one was different. That's why education is important for the homeowner.

DanHolohan

This is so good I'm going add it to the Blog article. Thanks, Josie!

rick in Alaska

One simple question to ask the prospective new heating contractor: "Would you be willing and proud to post a picture of your completed system on HeatingHelp.com, and have it critiqued?"
That would weed out a lot of them, but maybe not all of them. Some of the bad jobs we see are done by people who think they have done a good job. ( see my post on "Seattle heat").
Rick

Rich_49

Did you finally find a suitable contractor Josie ? I presume one that could help you get properly educated by showing a customer verifiable things would be as good as one could do .
Looks like you learned alot , sorry it was at such a steep cost .

RobG

I don't know if it has been said before but "Don't wait until the last minute to get you system serviced / replaced as your options at that point will be truly limited". Just look at all the Sandy victims that have been here with system problems (not their fault as hurricanes are unavoidable) but the hacks came out of the woodwork and then disapeared.

Joe_Homeowner

Ok, this is very helpful but much of this goes into the "You just don't know what you just don't know" file. For example, after living in a home with a steam system for a few years, my boiler died three years ago. In December. Right before Christmas. With record cold weather. And I was out of town. After getting the wife and kids warmed with space heaters, I spent a few days researching and interviewing heating contractors to replace the boiler. I knew NOTHING about steam heat. I searched reviews, talked to a bunch of people and ended up with two good reputable candidates. One wanted to put in copper pipes for the steam and one wanted to do black pipe. It didn't seem to matter much to me and the copper was much cheaper because of the easier installation. But I was skeptical of the lower price -- maybe copper wasn't appropriate for that boiler...? So I called the boiler manufacturer in Ohio or Michigan or somewhere and got their engineers ON THE PHONE and posed the question as to whether copper or black pipe mattered. The engineers huddled and said "it doesn't matter as far as the boiler is concerned - copper is fine." Now I was pretty impressed with myself -- getting the engineers of the boiler manufacturer on the phone and getting their opinion. I only learned later that the copper joints could separate over the years due to the expansions and contracting caused by the steam heat. Yeah, makes sense but I didn't know that at the time. That's why I asked the people who designed the boiler!

My point: there is no substitute for experience and specific knowledge.

So now I've read two of Dan's books and realize I have no main vents in my steam lines, some water banging, a bit of hissing and some unevenly heating radiators. I now have a bit of experience and a small amount of specific knowledge, but I need a professional to cure these issues. Who do you recommend in the Baltimore area?

DanHolohan

Steamhead.

KC_Jones

+1 on the @Steamhead recommendation.

nicholas bonham-carter

-1. On the copper.--NBC

ChrisJ

I too recommend @Steamhead