Wholesaler/Contractor Relation

Supply House Rick

With all due respect Mr Realoman

Hopefully you are not getting anything at the same price as the contractor. In my experience there is a significant difference in "mere homeowners" price class and contractors. You know, so when they call and want the price on something (usually when the contractor is in their house) the contractor has a shot at making a living. We do not sell HVAC equipment to "mere homeowners" and never will. You pay more because of the engineering and time spent explaining how something works while a legit pro is waiting. I have seen mere homeowners spend 15 minutes have a p-trap installation explained.

My 2 cents

Rick

EJW

Supply houses

Yeah I know who you mean, and I won't sneak around it, It's FW Webb. This is my primary supplier and they have been great to me. I can get guys to open for me on weekends of I am in a pinch, no problems. My counter guys will bring stuff home with them at night saving me running up there in the morning(15 miles). They know there products and are very well stocked. There are 2 other branches that are fairly close if they don't have something. I for one will not throw this company under the bus. I agree with Ted and say they are more of a partner to my business than a vendor.

EJW

Jed_2

Hear! Hear!

Well said, Rick. I confront that often. But, they must understand that by having it at 10:30 AM, they will pay a huge premium. Is this part the "C" item, or one that should be on the shelf? Or, what about the simple UH fan motor with a sloppy shaft bearing, "out of the box". No problem (regretably, I didn't have one), called the rep; " Oh, ya, we've been sending some out without the spacer bushing, I'll send you a few". Checked the motor, and the spacer bearing was installed. The shaft had way too much play still. HO marked the unit (so as not to get same unit back), and insisted on a complete new unit, plus labor compensation for the Contractor. No problem (even though the HO is being an **S H**e). Manufacturer defect. Yes.
Frequency, increasing!

By the way, have you, or anyone, had complaints about Riello burner fuel units pressure settings "floating"?

Jed

Rick_54

Riello

Jed, either Riello makes a tremendous product or we have been very fortunate. I base this on repair parts sold. There is dust on the Riello parts section...

Rick

Perry_2

Carefull here

Not all homeowners need a lot of things explained - some of us are, or have been, crackerjack mechanics in another field and may well be used to working with piping, valves, and controls. Some of us are also real good at researching things before we go shopping for stuff.

In my area I could not find a single heating contractor who understood how to hook up a Mod/con to a monoflo T system. In fact, I only found one contractor who wanted to even use a mod/con. Everyone else sticks with the cast iron boilers. The one who talked about the Munchin - was verbally and literally scratching his head on how to hook it up to the monoflo T system while in my house.

I had to educate the heating contractor I worked with on the Vitodens and how it would work with my system.

Yes their are homeowners who don't have a clue. But not all of us.

I assure you that I wish there were some decent really knowlegable contractors out there in the areas that I have lived that would quickly respond for a variety of smaller jobs. Trust me - I've got no problem with them making a decent living (and I know what that takes for labor charges and really do understand markups) - so it isn't a matter of my paying the bill. But, I've learned the hard way that unless I'm willing to go through hours of waiting - often on multiple days for people to show up - or get bids for larger project (which has taken months ever time I've done it) - that for the smaller stuff it is just faster to do it myself.

As for what I pay at the supply houses - that's between them and me. I am afterall - no "mere homeowner".

However, I would like to think that my time would be more valuably spent on other things than doing something that I should be able to hire someone to do. While I do have a day job - that is not my only source of income (and someday I'd like to be able to kick the dayjob - well before retirement).

Perry

michael malsbury

Easy there

Any contractors here work on their cars? Do you always go to Sears or equivalent to get car parts? Myself, I go to the dealership for parts I can't get retail. Likewise, I go to a supply house to get hard-to-find parts for my steam heating system. I'm neither a mechanic nor a heating contractor, but as far as I'm concerned, that's neither here nor there.

Ragu_5

My 2 cents

I'm proud of you guys from Mass. sticking up for Capco. They have done it right.

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Supply House Rick

Perry

That's why Home Depot & Lowes exist. To provide lower pricing to the homeowner who already knows what he's looking for and how to do it. These DIY outlets are great for this crowd.

You want better pricing at your Suppliers? Open a business, pay insurance, get a truck, get a License, complete all the classes and seminars as a Pro and you will be treated like a Pro. If not, get in line and wait your turn.

One more thing, did you look in the Find a Contractor section here? I would not have confidence in a Company not up to date with the latest equipment and technology. Especially if I had to explain it to them...

Supply House Rick

double post

whoops

Mitch_4

Interesting Thread.

What I find interesting is that some of the contractors here want the wholesaler to keep all the required parts on hand, but it sounds like you as the installer don't..why??

I do mostly forced air.. I use 1 line and 1 only, I know it, use like it, been trained on it and I HAVE ALL THE PARTS to fix it, even the older models.. I look at it as the price of business, and as mentioned previously (for whol;esalers to do)..I fully support my line, and have the parts in stock for it.

Mitch

WV EGBERT

BEING IN THE SUPPLY HOUSE BUS FOR 30 PLUS YEARS I HAVE SEEN THE INDUSTRY CHANGE...THE ONE THING I SEE HAS NOT CHANGED IS THE RESENTMENT THAT MANY CONTRACTORS HAVE FOR
SUPPLY HOUSES...I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE BEEN STUCK WITH NON STOCK PARTS WHICH I HAVE OVERNIGHTED
FOR MY CUSTOMER ONLY TO HAVE IT SIT HERE FOR WEEKS AND THEN CANCELED...OR HOW MANY TIMES SOME OF MY CUSTOMERS WILL DRIVE 1/2 HOUR AWAY TO ANOTHER SUPPLY HOUSE BECAUSE
THEY HAVE A WATER HEATER PRICE $5.00 CHEAPER..WE ARE PARTNERS....AND I AM GLAD TO SEE THAT SOME OF THE CONTRACTORS DO LOOK PAST PRICING AND SEE THE VALUE IN THE
SERVICE AND KNOWLEDGE WHICH MANY "TRANSFER HOUSES" DO HAVE

realolman

I don't expect to get the same price

as a contractor. I just expect to be able to get what I want.

I guarantee you I don't need any more of an explanation than any other contractor does...

I don't expect to get the same price as a contractor. I just expect to be able to get what I want.

Rick_54

Amen on that my brother

Loyalty means very little to most, NOT ALL. Every Supplier has lost sales for a few dollars. Even though we have on many occassions sent the pick-up 2 hours away to another branch and then driven 3 hours to get it to a contractor who has an emergency. Amen on that brother...

Jeff Lawrence_25

WV,

I know you're proud, but do you have to YELL?

Jed_2

I have dust, too

But that's not what I'm talking about. Reliability is there. What I'm talking about is tha t a few Techs have mentioned to me that frequently they have been called back for "rough starts", and slight sooting a while after the new install. Tech serviced through the unit, and found the pump pressure was not what they had set it at on commissioning. Not a failure, just floated a bit. Reset it, and all was fine. One seasoned, experienced Contractor said he has had to do this on 10-12 installs. George and Steve are quality Technicians, and know these burners inside and out. Just perplexed by this pump pressure "floating"(my term). No, they didn't change the pump, didn't need to after the re-adjustment. Curious.

Jed

Ken_40

Newark?

Morristown?

Always thought you guys did an excellent job. I was crushed when you bailed out of Morristown.

BTW, Jerry Ball of W.A.Birdsall always spoke highly of you as well.

You are missed.

Ray Landry_3

I think that the 'big box' attitude supply houses will weed themselves out sooner than later. Most REAL supply houses won't even sell to non tradesman, and the ones that do always serve the homeowners last and with malice. It's always interesting to sit back and look at the big picture. The role supply houses play in our trade is much bigger than it may first appear. Their abiltiy to produce the items required to do our job is very crucial. I have dealt with every supplier in middle/eastern Mass, and must give yet another vote for CAPCO Energy Supply out of Woburn MA. We didn't even know about them until a couple of years ago, and let me say that I don't know what I ever did without them. Their product knowladge that their people provide is really second to none, and no matter how many hoops and bounds they need to jump through, they WILL get you your parts on time. Okay I'll stop my rant.

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mtfallsmikey

This has been going on for years

Another one of Mt. Falls Mikey's "been there done that" statements. The wholesale-to-HO direct sales thing started in the early 80's, recession,slow sales,the rise of box stores,lack of contractor merchandising, the list goes on and on. Just as the wholesaler won't or can't afford to stock all of the repair parts you need, contractors can't afford to as well. Pick and choose what brands you sell carefully, see how the wholesaler will handle repairs/warranty issues. And if you have a good relationship with a wholesaler,stick by them. They are not perfect, but if they at least make an honest effort to cultivate your business, don't hammer them about small differences in prices, or make threats. You know how you will respond to a HO who plays this game with you. My fave wholesaler: Southern Refrigeration Corp. in Roanoke Va. I'm the 2nd generation of my family to do business with them, outstanding service!

Constantin

Speaking of partnership...

...I think this is an area of great opportunity for supply house and contractor alike. Sit down, discuss what has been sold in the last year, what you're on the hook for re: servicing, etc.

Knowing approximately what fails and how often, wouldn't it be possible for the supply house to stock critical parts for all the contractors in the program? Everyone puts a bit of money in the pot to buy this "insurance" and it ends up costing them less than stocking all the parts themselves. As long as the supply house is conveniently located and someone is on call to let you in when there is an emergency...

The supply house wins by reducing its cost of inventory and creating a partnership with its best customers, the contractor wins by having to stock fewer parts (reducing his/her working capital as well).

Supply House Rick

One more thing that works for Suppliers

Pay your bill on time every time and your level of service will increase dramatically! Constantin, do you work for as a contractor or for a supplier? Your plan is what all of us strive to achieve

Chuck

ScottMP

I'll put in my Two cents

for CAPCO also, They have helped me grow my business with a close relationship and knowledgable staff !!

Nice Job Tim.

Scott

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Ron Huber

ditto

Capco got 90% of my business since around 91, and I am about 80 minutes one way from their store, they are that good. Top of the line products, all in stock, unsurpased training, Tim never seems to compromise when it comes to quality equipment. Capco started out as an alternative energy company, Cambridge Alternative Energy Company.

Constantin

Sorry...

... I am but a interested civilian.

Other industries allegedly go a lot further, BTW. Thinking of buying a turbine engine for power generation? You may never really "own" one... rather you may own the right to a working one instead... the manufacturer will come in and swap out the whole unit rather than repair it on site since downtime is so expensive in that business. This goes for repairs AND regular maintenance.

Brad White_9

Well............


does everyone feel better now??

Good.

(Cleansing breathes)

Now....to quote from the good Lord, "Let him that hath no sin cast the first stone"(your personal version may differ....a tiny bit)

Here is a parable. A man goes to his doctor because he has an upset stomach. The daoctor asks, "How does your left leg feel?", The man answers, "Fine". The doctor proceeds to smash the man's left leg with a sledge hammer and asks, "How does your left leg feel?". The man cries in agony that his leg is broken. The doctor proceeds to amputate the leg.

A month later the same man goes back to the doctor with a head-ache that will not go away. The docter asks, "How does you right leg feel?". The man answers, "Fine". The doctor proceeds to smash his right leg with a sledge hammer and asks, "How does your right leg feel?". The man cries in agony that his leg is broken. The doctor proceeds to amputate the leg.

A month later the same man goes back to the same doctor.............do I need to go on with this????

Perhaps I'm just the lucky guy that has a supplier that just does what they are supposed to do. Gimme' what I need.
Are they perfect??? Nope. They never claimed to be. If they had, I would not have used them.

I ask for stuff that my supplier would never have heard of if I hadn't ordered it. They have never let me down.

If you have a supplier that wants to amputate yor leg, find a new supplier. I use N&S Supply here in NY. Webb and Michels are closer, but they can't touch N&S as far as service goes. Not even close.

Piss and moan all you want, but we all make the beds we sleep in. Sweet dreams.

Mark H





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Supply House Rick

Huh?

Constantin, are you saying that wholesalers & contractors don't work as hard as your industry? That seems like an elitist attitude especially since you are not actually in our business. I am coming to a conclusion that you have no idea what it takes on either side of the counter to make an honest living. Do you just sit there and think up answers that some may want want to hear or are they based in reality?

Constantin

Chuck,

I don't work in the power industry either. At no point do I mean to imply that contractors or supply houses do not work hard either. I've gone over my reply and continue to wonder how you come to that conclusion?

My example of the industry practices in the power generation business is that those folk have changed their practices to suit the needs of customers who value uptime over everything else. Swapping turbines for maintenance and repairs alike allegedly does this. Besides maximizing the uptime for the customer, it guarantees a steady income for the company that does the servicing / maintenance.

Tell me, how is this not something that you or your contractors would love, i.e. a relationship with a customer who is willing to pay a premium for "uptime", i.e. a warm home? Isn't such a customer preferable to a relentless price-shopper?

From what I have read in this thread, the successful contractors here either have the parts on hand or a relationship with a very good supply house. I'll bet an ice cream sundae that being able to respond to emergencies with the right parts ASAP is one of the reasons that said contractors manage to build a following of loyal and profitable customers that don't even bother to price-shop because the know good value when they receive it.

My suggestion to consider segmenting your supply-house customers and figuring out whether some of them (and you) could benefit from a stocked-parts program above and beyond what you usually carry was just that, a suggestion. If you don't like the idea, find it too impractical, etc. then don't implement it. And guess what, I won't make snide remarks about your competency either way.

mtfallsmikey

Constantin isn't an eliteist

He makes a good point. I have been a contractor, and now I hire contractors. I have been fortunate enough to cultivate good relationships with my contractors who understand that at the facility that I manage, downtime or major equipment failures, long lead times are unacceptable when you manage commercial properties. And I keep a spare 30 hp motor for my condenser pumps and a spare gearbox for my Marley cooling towers, as well as some other stuff that is critical on site. I can also summon contractors to supply my emergency cooling and electrical needs as well.
I do have an advantage with my wholesalers/suppliers that a lot of contractors don't have, since I work for a large property management company.

Tom R.

\"Supply\" house

My standard answer when they say they can order something is "I can order it. I want it now." Somehow, in an effort to save on how much $ is tied up in inventory, many have forgotten that a warehouse is a place to store goods. Not an office where people order things. That is why we don't mind them marking up what they carry - that is the cost to us for having the stuff available. It is also why small hardware stores are still around in the face of the Big Box Boys - they have one or two of everything in stock, they get it for you, and it only takes about a minute. Did you ever notice the size of the lots that the leading car sales dealers have? Nuff said.

Supply House Rick

Mark, Well said

"You are treated the way you allow yourself to be treated"
(You can write that one down)

Somewhere a salesperson at a supplier is waiting to properly take care of you. We are not perfect BUT if we are honest and hustle we should be able to earn & keep someones business! Don't accept mediocrity...

Rick

Perry_2

Yes, I did look: None arround.

There was not one listed for my entire state... when I looked several months ago. Furthermore - I don't live in a larger metropolitan area.

So what are my choices - only use old technology and not worry about energy efficiency? Only buy what the local contractors are selling?

Or... go for some high quality and high efficincy equipment.

I am aware that people in much larger cities may be able to find someone who can do this - and other stuff; but about 1/2 of the US population does not live in larger cities and metropolitan areas. For them - the internet has been a real blessing (and yes I know a lot of people don't use it wisely and get junk - or sold stuff that won't work for their application).

One of the reasons that I decided to try to work with a local contractor was that I want them to see how it works - and how efficient it is so they can start offering it to others in the area. If I am successfull in that - then it will be worth the agravation and the many extra thousands I paid. Besides, it would be nice to have someone to do the routine service and repairs - a feature that I would not be able to get if I had just installed it myself.

As far as the box stores. There are distinct differences in what can be gotten from a wholesaler supply house and the box stores once you move past the most common basic fittings. Why should I limit myself?

Perry

Supply House Rick

Hey Look! A New Product!

We are also supposed to introduce new product to contractors. Now I can take it easy the rest of the day...

Rick

realolman

I have read

stuff Constantin has posted before, here and other sites.
He seems like a good man to me.

SVDW

Right on Mark!

I wish all our customers understood the logic behind your comments! Everybody has problems with unmotivated/ignorant/don't care employees. Sometimes it takes a while to identify them & find somebody better. I learned a long time ago when I call a rep the first question asked is "Who's the resident expert on ...." Otherwise I get to explain my problem twice: once to the guy who answers the phone & then to the guy who can actually help me. If I ask for the #1 guy off the bat it saves time & I get the best service.
Our counter guys are there to type orders & pull the typical stuff our customers require. Our customer service surveys tell me they do a great job. The guys at the desks in the back are there to identify parts & make the calls to the rep when the series # on the part has a "c" instead of a "b" & the connector is different;) Once you figure out which guy is the "go-to" guy call him/her in the future. You also have somebody to hold accountable if your part does not arrive when promised for whatever reason. How many times have you heard "I don't know who I talked to but.." Chances are the guy they talked to has an answer, If only we knew who it was.........

Constantin

Wow...

Good on you to go ahead and buy the Vitodens despite the lack of a "support infrastructure" in your area. My experience with it has been quite positive so far, but I only have a month or two of runtime to look back on. If classroom space permits, I think I may be on my way back to Viessmann to learn about that unit too!

Did you end up putting the Vitodens on a UPS? Or is your power so steady and clean that you don't have to worry about it?

Allan_5

And a 95%'ter from Crown too let's take the weekend off - not

Here are the specs on the new Crown Bimini BWC 120 wall hung gas boiler (just announced)! This is a fully modulating condensing gas boiler. With an AFUE of 95.2% it qualifies for the Federal Tax credit of $150. The maximum input is 120,000 and the minimum is 40,000 BTU's and it can modulate anywhere inbetween. The BWC 120 includes the standard Crown concentric venting package and wall mounting hardware. Like all of the low mass condensing gas boilers, it must be piped for primary/secondary circulation and Crown provides a 0014 Circulator for the boiler loop. The BWC 120 weighs in around 100 pounds. (attachment - Crown Gas Boiler BWC 120 .pdf specifications sheet). Now let's take the weekend off - no let's not, as usual - we better be open for supplys & service, it is heating season, we do have parts and it may get cold one of these days soon! I like to use this saying that I have borrowed and used proudly for many years "Thanks for what you do".

G-rott

At a buck and a half a minute...LOL

Keep it in perspective, at $1.50 a minute, you "earned" more in your 10 min. wait than the poor bloke behind the counter did in the last hour. Plus he probaply had to deal with attitude when it was your turn.

No other "trade" has such a "WE ARE THE RETAILER" attitude. Most now make 5 or 10 percent on handeling the materials of there trade and make their living on the instilation and service of said materials. Why? Who knows.

If you want to retail then by all means do so, add a showroom and stock so you can order from the Whole Sale Warehouse in full boxes, pallets, or cartons. Then you can also deal with inventory.

WV EGBERT

Ok here is an example of the highs and lows of a wholesaler...One of my customers had a early GV Weil boiler
with the dangerous plex vent still in place...needed the starter el and al29 ss venting...after numerous calls with the Weil tech dept and with the weil rep I had one shipped out to him at NO CHARGE..He said to me YOU ARE THE MAN!!!
Until he saw the price of the AL29 venting....suddenly i was not THE MAN...I was the ROBBER!!!!...I tried to explain
to him that he needed to use the al29 stainless and that the price like all metals has gone up...He said that he would "Make something up with smoke pipe and how could i sleep at night with charging prices like that"...Well the only reason that I won't sleep now is that i know he is installing the wrong venting material and a potential tradgedy is possible

Ken_40

Rick,

Reality check?

When I call ANY supply house/wholesalers, this is the far too frequent scenario:

WC: "Wholesale Central"

ME: "Is Tyrone in"?

WC: "No, he's out at the counter today, Abduhl hurt his ankle yesterday and took a few days off so Tyrone's not in the office now." "Can I help"?

ME: "Sure, if you know anything about a TACO ice-cube relay for a 4-zone controller." "I need one now and might as well get a spare - how much could it cost"?

WC: "I'm not familiar with the TACO line, perhaps I can pull Tyrone out from the counter." "Want me to ask"?

ME: "That would help." "I have a mother of two toddlers telling me all the bedrooms of the second floor are down to mid-50's and dropping." "I need the part yesterday and you close half a day Wednesday, right"?

WC: "Please hold while I get him."

ME: "I know there's a phone at the counter, can't he pick up"?

WC: "No, sombody else is using it."

ME: "I'll wait."

.................... 20 minutes later ...

WC: "Wholesale Central, how can I help, this is Vinnie."

ME: "Hey Vin, this is ME, I was on hold awaiting Tyrone to pick-up."

WC: "Tyrone went to lunch 25 minutes ago." "You could call back in 35 minutes, he should be back by then."

ME: "Is anyone else versed in TACO relay components or is Tyrone the only one"?

WC: "Tyrone is the main-kazane on that stuff." Do you want me to have him call you back as soon as he returns from lunch"?

ME; "Sure Vincent, if it's not too much trouble."

WC: "No trouble." "Your Name and number"?

ME: "My name is ME from M.E. Contacting."

WC: "I'll be sure to give him the message as soon as he returns."

.............. 1-hour later...................

WC: "Hello, Wholesale Central, this is Meshugga Dave, how can I direct your call"?

ME: "Is Tyrone there"?

WC: "Sure he's at the counter however and their now four deep in-line." "Want me to have him call you back"?

ME: Loud slamming noise heard from telephone being thrown up against the wall, penetrating sheetrock before the curly wire prevents it from completing its journey through R-13 and 1/2" CDX exterior sheating...

A large "bubble" coincidently appears on the exterior vinyl siding - of previously unknown origin...

And that Rick, is why we try not to call anymore than we have to. One more reason? Even if you get a day's lead time, a few items needed at the appointed time of the day-later pick-up, STILL won't be pulled, and the 40-item shopping list has to be dumped all over the counter to make sure all te parts ordered are actually in the box(es)!

Frequently, a 2x1x2" tee will instead be: a 2x2x1" Inevitably, THAT fitting will be the starting point of today's pipe work and the job is 50 miles from any other wholesaler.

Reality check is now concluded (;-o)

EJW

REPORT HIM

Supply House Rick

Ken - Reality Check?

I am sorry that your wholesale experience has been so unpleasant. I believe that if you read Mark's post or Mark, Darin or Singh Mechanical's previous posting regarding the supplier they chose to do the majority of their business with. You would see that some suppliers actually care, are professional are dependable and usually come through in the clutch. Are we perfect? No. Are contractors? No.

Have we differentiated ourselves from the other suppliers in our area? Most definitely. Can't speak for the rest of the USA.

Some companies do it better and I work for them...

Rick