just a rant

Jim Davis

Okay Dan, I'm back

I have seen the posts from last week and this week and I find it hard to remain diplomatic, but I will try. Thought this might be the best post to reply under, plus Dan you ask if I smoked. Yes. But do you know the medical benefits of smoking? A recent study by heart surgeons stated that smokers survive balloon surgery on their heart at a much higher rate than non-smokers. A medical study shows that if a person having a stroke, would smoke a cigarette immediately, he would suffer less paralysis. It is a medical fact that carbon monoxide causes Alzheimer's and Parkinson's Disease. A heart surgeon at Stanford University has discovered that nicotine is an affective treatment for both in minimizing the symtoms and deterioration. Michael J. Fox's Parkinson Disease has been medically linked to CO exposure and he never smoked! I just spoke this past week at a conference for chemically injured persons. Dozens more victims whose lives have been destroyed by carbon monoxide exposure because their contractors didn't think it was important. By the way CO poisonings are misdiagnosed over 90% of the time(according to doctors who study it).

By the way, unless you put a plastic bag around the CO Alarm it will not display the CO from a cigarette unless you hold it there for at least several minutes. If it is digital the levels must get above 30ppm before it can display. Having tested restaurants and bars I have found that the non-smoking section closer to the kitchen has more CO in it than the smoking section away from the kitchen. Also smoking rooms in hotels are safer than non-smoking rooms in most cases. Until 1998 cigarettes were the approved method for checking venting in the National Fuel Gas Code(Damn, someone had to get Politically Correct!!)

I have been doing CO testing on oil with digital equipment for over 20 years. I have submitted CO data to Brookhaven Labs which they accepted as true. I have worked with the Oil Heat Association of Canada to provide CO & Oil training over 10 years ago. I discovered then and ever since, you cannot properly adjust and tuned and oil furnace without a CO reading. CO2 and smoke provide minimum information(kind of like making a movie with a polaroid camera). If a gizmo with more push buttons on it than a can of soot spray is too complicated for a service tech who works on oil I find it hard to believe he is competent and qualified. I can hardly believe someone wants to brag that his vacuum cleaner is the most expensive service tool on his truck for heating. If waiting for more deaths and injuries is the only driving force to motivate people to test it is a sad world. There is not one documented death from radon, yet testing is mandated! There is no factual data(just theories) supporting Freon causing harm to the ozone, but we must reclaim it and do away with it. There is no proof that automobiles are main cause of poor air quality in cities, but E-Check is mandatory in many. Records show since E-Check started, not one city has seen improvement in air quality. It is hard to believe that an instrument that is on display at the Smithonian Institute is considered to be advanced technology.
If one does not considered their customer important enough to receive the maximum safety and efficiency and to deal with those that are willing to learn the latest in technology the transition that the oil industry is in is "out the door". There are two types of people in our industry and they are both M.A.D. Some are out to "Make A Dollar", the others are out to "Make A Difference". Keeping equipment running wrong for 40 years doesn't make it right. By the way NASA is looking for a few more good engineers that think the O-Rings and Heat Tiles don't need to be fixed until something happens again. People lives, not death should be our motivation!

Jim Davis

Deaths

Number of people that die each year that don't smoke:
1,974,425

DanHolohan

Well,

I guess you're in good company, Jim.

DanHolohan

Like I said

Smoke 'em if you got 'em!

DanHolohan

You make me smile.

You would have loved my Dad. He was the most militant smoker I've ever met. He argued with me about it even as I drove him to the hospital for the last time. Tough guy.

Jim Davis

Tongue in cheek

I would never recommend smoking to anyone. But because I smoke I do my homework and have my light-hearted facts. The fact that obesity has passed smoking as far as medical claims, not sure about death, I would never recommend eating either. :>)

tommyoil

WHAT??????

I think the world is coming to an end! Medical benefits of smoking? I'll take my chances with the heart surgery and a paralysis after my stroke. Its hard core when someone lists the benefits (all two of them) of smoking without listing the one hundred bazillion negative consequenses up to and including a visit from the grim reaper.Even HE doesnt smoke. Next, we'll be hearing about all the wonderful benefits of obesity. 1)Clogged arteries slow down blood flow so your heart wont have to work as hard.2) If you go camping you can always use your shirt for a tent.3)Dont have to worry about what your shoes look like since you cant see them anyway.4)Family wont need an umbrella on the beach to escape the sun ect,ect. Think of all the $$$ you'll save. I have now officially heard it all. I think I have entered the bizzaro world.

DanHolohan

Tobacco addiction is a tough master.

Been there, and I was also pretty clever with the words at the time.

Good luck to you, Jim. I wish you well.

Murph'_5

Is that .....

A young Dan holohan in that picture??


Murph'

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Murph'_5

You are Phunnyt guy....

I can see where you stand on the issue.

Murph'

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Mark Hunt

Whoa Tommy!


It was all "tongue in cheek".

Just for giggles though, take a look at how "draft testing" is described in most water heater instructions.

Smoke from a cigar or cigarette was the preferred "testing device"!!!

So relax, you're not in bizarro world just yet!

You have to attend a Wetstock for that!

Best wishes.

Mark H

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Dave Yates (PAH)

a tough master

Man, you got that one right. I was a 3.5 pack-a-day puffer till one day, my young 2 year old walked across the living room and picked up my pack of smokes. Now, I always flipped open the box with my thumb and grabbed the next smoke with my teeth because my hands were always dirty from working and the next motion was to bring the lighter up to initiate a burn. The little bugger picked up the box, flipped it open with his thumb and put the filters up to his mouth while raising the lighter - like he was a veteran smoker.

You could have knocked me down with a feather. All the while, I'd been going outside to smoke so's I wouldn't tarnish the little guy's lungs. Musta been watching me through the window.

We went on vacation the next week & I went cold turkey. The hardest damn thing I ever did. Hi, my name's Dave and I've been smoke free for 15 years now(G).

BTW, you all forgot to include deaths from Legionella! And scalding!!! Sure is a scary world out there among the living. The thing I like the most, is that almost everyone who visits here is working valiantly towards the common good. Keep on trucking.

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Unknown

" There are two types of people in our industry and they are both M.A.D. Some are out to "Make A Dollar", the others are out to "Make A Difference".

The way I figure it , you couldn't be a type 2 person without being a little type 1 . Or are your classes free Jim ? Me personally , I try to be a little of both types .

Would you happen to have any data on CO poisoning from oil fired equipment which was tuned and set to manufacturer's specs , but without a CO test ? How long of an interval between tuning and CO poison ? Excluding furnaces , which should require testing for CO annually IMHO .

One more question to the people who test for CO daily - whats the highest concentration of CO in the flue gas you have seen on oil fired equipment that was tuned and running to specs ? And do you see elevated concentrations of CO in this situation often ? Thanks for any info .

Glenn Harrison_2

Dan, here's one for ya

I just had my wife lite up a smoke, take a couple of puffs, then put it in the ash tray, still lit.

CO readings from the tip was 250 to 300 ppm, and O2 between 19.9 and 20.5%

No wonder second hand smoke is bad for you.

Smoke em if you got em.

Mark Hunt

My apologies Mr. Yates.


You opened my eyes to the threat posed by that little monster.

We changed the way we approach domestic water production because of your information.

I will never forget that lesson.

Thank you sir!

Mark H

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Unknown

How do you figure

I started smoking at 18 and quit at 26 years old. I was a mean and lean 175 pounds. Here I am 40 years later OBESEEEE at 225 pounds. Maybe I should take up smoking again?????

By the way if you have never met Jim Davis he is mean and lean!!!

tommyoil

Phew !!!!

Thank the almighty for that( toungue in cheek). I felt like Rod Serling for a minute. Wetstock= bizzaro? Now I gotta go. I have just entered the wetstock zone.

Jim Davis_3

CO & Oil

Not being indepedently wealthy and working for a training company that is not a charity, yes my boss has to charge for training. Making a difference means you are willing to go beyond what is required and challenge those things that have be proven to be wrong. It means you don't accept things as they are because that is the easy way to get by. It means fighting for people lives when even they don't care sometimes. To have saved but one life, is enough to motivate me the rest of mine as is has for many of my students who are very vocal on this site.
While working on high efficiency oil furnaces in the early 80's no one in the country could get these furnaces to work right. As anyone and they will tell you they were pieces of crap. But one day in 1983 I decided to test one. At factory spec, and at zero smoke the oil furnace I was tested was producing over 5000ppm of CO. That was enough to change my thoughts on oil and CO. Since then I would say 30-40% of all oil furnaces and equipment I tested were producing excessive CO at factory specs, with a smoke less than one. When people are found dead in a home with an oil furnace, carbon monoxide poisoning is usually rule out without a test because everyone knows you will have smoke and soot everywhere, right! Wrong! In a recent news artcle a fire department was quoted saying that CO poisonings only occur early in the fall when equipment is first turned on and rarely any other part of the year. Bad assumptions are bad assumptions. CO is a mechanical diagnostic tool as well as a safety tool. If an appliance is properly tuned by someone trained in proper CO testing, there has never been a poisoning to date. Many of the CO poisonings stories indicate that a contractor had recently serviced the equipment. Having been involved in several dozen law suits and readings papers on several now, a contractor has been responsible for the problem. Every one was licensed and qualified by most definitions except when it came to CO testing because that is not a requirement, it is strictly voluntary. 95% of all contractors choose not to test as part of regular business. Can't afford to equip each truck. My customers won't pay for it. Creates too much liability. None of my customers have died yet. Gee, who gets to be the first. The biggest problem is you don't have to die of CO poisoning for it to destroy your life. Medical researchers are now saying that tens of thousands of people who suffer from congestive heart failure every year can be blamed on low level CO exposure. The death certificate stills reads "Heart Attack"

Unknown

Well , you got me thinking Jim

The only way to know is to test . If you or anyone knows of someone selling a used CO tester , would you be kind enough to let me know ?

By the way , the furnace that produced 5000 ppm CO at factory specs - how did you fix the problem ?

Heres my 2 cents for tonight , I'm getting pretty incoherent the later it gets - in a perfect world every serviceman would have a CO analyzer . But being less than perfect , I feel that we should always insist a homeowner have a good CO detector . Because we cannot predict what a fuel burning appliance will be doing a few days , weeks , months after a full blown tuneup and test , including CO .

Mark Hunt

If I quit


will you all promise to go to one of Jim Davis's classes?



Mark H

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LEAD PIPE

Jim Davis

I don't know Jim Davis well but I did attend one of his classes, and yes I paid money to attend. However, I have contacted Jim by phone and email on several occasions with combustion questions and he has always responded. I never got a bill for his time, in fact the only thing I did get was his insistence that I call him whenever I had a question.

Thanks Jim

ScottMP

I'll take it Mark

I go to class --- You stop smoking ..

You got a deal PAL.

I am not as militant as others and I only smoked for a few years but I am glad to see others stop. I would be more than happy to see the young Hunts have Dad around a few more years.

Scott

ScottMP

No dumb questions

Only dumb answers, thats what I tell my guys.

That being said I have a question that seems dumb.

Many times I read post where someone is tuning an applaince and find there is excessive CO in the flue. They shut it down and suggets replacement. Is'nt the CO going up the flue ? Unless its damaged can't it be replaced ? Is is that bad that CO is going up the chimney ( spillage I understand ) ? How many chimney deaths a year ?

I hate to ask this because it sound dumb but I am curious.

Thanks

Scott

DanHolohan

Again, you make me smile, Jim

"It means fighting for people lives when even they don't care sometimes."

Which is why I brought up the smoking.

It's often difficult to get through to folks who have already made up their minds, isn't it? ;-)

Mark Hunt

Depends


I know I have made a few of those posts Scott, and I realize now that I should have been more specific about our reason for replacing equipment.

Sometimes you can't fix the CO problem. Gas water heaters are a prime example. There really isn't any way to adjust these. Keep an eye on the new style FVRI. Once those air screens start to get dirty, combustion is going to suffer.

Many times we find old equipment in the home and offer the folks an option to upgrade.

With a combustion test, we can determine how efficiently the equipment is burning the fuel. If we can make it better, we do.

I will post our reasons for replacing equipment in the future, but I suspect you will find that most often it will be "customer wanted newer system".



Mark H

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Mark Hunt

I knew you loved me! (nm)



Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Luxury of a choice

Dan made a observation about the smoking and CO testing. I have thought that myself many times. I smoke myself on and off. But smoking is a personal choice, leaving a customers boiler in a possibly compromising condition is a choice I am sure they do not want you making for them. I have no doubt a lawyer would make that abundantly clear in a court of law. As far as quitting smoking, No arguement there.




Darin






Mark H

DanHolohan

When we were at Wetstock in Baltimore

Mark registered the CO coming off the canned heat under the buffet and was concerned. He told me that he was going to have to shut down the event if the level of CO got any higher. I opened the door to the outside, and thanked him for his concern, and for his warning.

Later, we were sitting at the bar, having a drink, and Mark was smoking like he was about to be executed. I thought that was hilarious and said so. We had a great laugh over it.

As you say, Darin, smoking is a personal choice, but I think that you, Mark and Jim would be able to convince more people if they didn't see you smoking. You're sending subliminal mixed messages.

It is, however, a drug addiction, and I understand that.

Jim Davis_3

CO & Smoking

Who better to discuss CO than someone that is full of it. Besides I have applied to have my breath certified as calibration gas. Could save thousands on repairs. :>)

jackchips_2

LOL Jim,

but regards to smoking, isn't it the second hand smoke and it's CO that affects everyone around it that is also a major concern.

Somewhere along the line this thread has become a lot more civil.

DaveC

Then once again, let me retract...

my little correlation between suicide and smoking, if second hand smoke is the bigger part of this issue. I'm a little confused about the hostility it wrought. For the record, I don't smoke cigarettes, and am crushed having lost my wife's father recently from lung cancer, and seeing my father suffer for years from the effects of smoking.

Darin Cook_3

Still cannot argue

Dan , yes it would be more convincing. I will not argue somking can be bad for you. People smoke for a whole host of reasons. Boilers and furnaces create CO for a limited amount of reasons. It is up to us as a professionals to know how and why this is and to deal with it. Go to one of Jim's courses, you will love it. At the very least it will give you food for thought on one of your articles. Instead of spying on wholesalers in a Long Island Diner. (Just Kidding).




P.S. Your gift is to always bring comical yet insightful perspective to a debate. Especially one as emotional as CO!
Thanks a Million
Darin

Mark Hunt

Dan



I didn't realize you took me that seriously. I measured 15ppm CO and I'm not sure if it was the Sternos or Timmies demonstration. Probably a combo of the two, with the Sterno cans coming in first.

Whether I smoke or not does not change the seriousness of this issue.

What I do to me, is not nearly as serious as what I may do to others.

As I said, I will throw away the smokes tomorrow if you all agree to attend a Jim Davis class.

I'm serious.



Mark H

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ScottMP

Ohh

Now its all of us.

See what a servant you are to the butts.

I took up the challenge. Wheres the class and drop the butts .

O.K. back to the issiue at hand. I have a customer who's boiler is making 330 ppm and we feel it need sto be shut down. They don;t have the money or the money to keep the place. They are trying to get out form under the home and now we have shut-down the 2nd floor unit.

No spillage, no reading in the boiler room. Just apoor burning applaince. Should we shut it down or leave it going.

Scott ( cough cough ) Milne

tommyoil

When&where

I'll go for that. Where do I sign up? Not that I'm crazy about being around someone whos trying to quit, but I gotta keep you alive long enough to enjoy that skeeter and tick meal with a few frostys. Tell me when and where. I'm in. Bet you're sweating now.

John Ruhnke

Legal limits..............

Scott,

That is very close to the legal limits in flue gas. The limit is in the 400's. If the level of CO goes over the limit then you have a legal right to shut down the equipment or fix it. Yes if it is over the legal limit and they didn't want to fix it, I most definetly will shut the boiler off and it should then be red taged. 330 is close. I would at the very least sell them two CO Experts monitors. One for the basement and one for the upstairs.

JR

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Darin Cook_3

I can't have him quitting

I am the one who has to work with him every day. How would we see if the low level monitor was working on the CO experts alarm? We were deer hunting one year up in Northern Maine and he ran out of smokes. Thought I was going to have to put the .270 to him. But because his wife wouldn't pony up the cash for a "little accident" to happen, I brought him back home.






Darin

Unknown

Scott I assume your CO

reading of 330 is air free CO? If it is then it may only take and air adjustment to bring the CO down to a workable level. I like to see less than 100 PPM.

You have to take each system and look at all the variables. The advantage with the boiler versus the furnace is no duct work to contend with to transfer the CO into living spaces. I can tell you that if I was going to shut off every boiler making over 300 PPM but under 400 PPM I would shut off a lot of boilers. It probably could use a cleaning and tune up and that should do the trick. As you said they are short on the cash side. Another thought if they are going to sell the place they have a legal sistuation if they know the boiler is faulty and do not disclose that to potential buyers.

The cost to sell them two detectors could be offset by spending that money to service the boiler.

Jim Davis_3

Red Tag or Not?

The actual certification of equipment says that anything producing over 400ppm "air free" must be shut down. Air free means the oxygen has been factored out. Most analyzers do the calculation. If a boiler is making 300ppm and 20% of this is spilling there may not be any measurable CO in the room for an hour because it is diluted by the volume of air in the room. Do you do a venting interference test? This test requires a draft test and then a change in environmental conditions such as opening and closing doors, turning on other exhausting appliances etc. Any change in the draft downward is an indication that over time in a closed environment spillage will occur. Once spillage can occur the CO production of the appliance will radically increase. On actual investigations of equipment where the occupants were killed by CO, it has been found that CO readings in the space can take 1-3 hours before they are measureable. The only good thing about 300ppm in the flue is that is will keep birds from building a nest. In life or death situations, nitpicky is the only safe solution. When in doubt-condemn!

Darin Cook_3

Worst Case Depressurization

of the combustion appliance zone is the name of the test Jim described. That is part of the testing done when a energy audit for the Energy Star program is performed. Timmie most definetely much of the time a good cleaning can get the combustion numbers where they should be. Sometimes the equipment has already lived a long life and that is all the customer needs to upgrade the equipment. Under Building Performance Institute's protocol at 400ppm of CO you shut the appliance down. If the people did not want to do anything about it we would call the utility and have them lock out the appliance. After I came back from Jim's course, I felt like a detective. But instead of a magnifying glass I had a Digital analyzer. Testing is still the key here.





Darin