just a rant

ernie_3

I think we should all agree to disagree on the subject of CO. I'm going to agree w' GL aka Firedragon on the argument that CO may not even exist in oil fired combustion that's running correctly. That's what I was taught @ NEFI, anyway. I've had the nightmarish 'creosoted boiler' on several occassions but every one of them hapenned for a reason...poor fuel unit presure....partialy obstructed nozzle (producing candle flame)...to name a few. I maintain that my Bacharach suitcase has served my customers in good stead. If we're so interested in our customers well being why not outlaw the GE downfire or the ocassional rotary burners that we see. (I still see them ). How about some of the lemons like the HB Smith FD12 or the 90+ oil fired (can't think of the mfg) How about the munchkin fore-runner....Repco. Changes in industry come about slowly, we all know that. Facts are what are important. We should stick to them. Sorry I know a lot of this post is opinion as far as 'lemon systems.' Re: CO let's stick to facts so as to not muddy the water. Dialogue is healthy, casting aspersions is just a distraction.

Unknown

I agree with you

Ernie . Although I would love to have a CO tester with my old Bacharach suitcase , I do not think my customers lives are at more of a risk if I do not have one . I agree that if you don't check , you simply don't know . But I also believe that a properly tuned and venting boiler , annually serviced , makes a CO test a moot point . One thing to consider - when a CO test is done annually , this is only a snapshot of that one day . A month , 6 months from then , an oil fired boiler that was at an acceptable CO level could be at dangerous levels till the next tuneup . This is why we think a good home CO detector is far more important to the safety of a homeowner . This is just my humble opinion .

Digital analyzers are not a common item here on Long Island , where oil fired equipment numbers in the hundreds of thousands . I guess it has to do with the initial cost compared to a traditional suitcase , and the fact that it has to be shipped out to be fixed or calibrated every so often . I believe Ken had some issues with a few digital analyzers he invested in .

Firedragon_4

Consider this statement!

Digital analyzers are not a common item here on Long Island , where oil fired equipment numbers in the hundreds of thousands .

Not only is Ron Jr. right, as usual, but he's talking about the largest oilheat market in the country.

Pay attention to all of the statements made by oilheat techs, they reflect their bosses wishes and the industry as a whole.

The whole doodah about CO and oil has to be sold here first, not on Internet sites filled with believers.

Please don't take this wrong Ron, just had to use it because it's dead nuts, right on!

Unknown

Not at all

And one thing we do have in abundance is very old oil burning equipment . Just this Thurday we removed a 55 year old Low York in a kitchen . Still working , the homeowner decided to have a new one put in the garage .

One thing we do not hear about often is CO poisoning . And believe me , word would spread like wildfire if something bad happens in one of our customer's homes . As always , I need to do some more research on the issue to see if my statement is totally correct .

I don't want to step on any toes with this issue - I would love to see a CO tester in my bag of tricks . But going by past experience with the customer base here , a thoroughly cleaned boiler and chimney base with a new filter , nozzle and strainer on the burner - all done annually , and the burner running to specs will give the customer a very safe heating unit . It is the systems that aren't kept up annually that I believe would benefit the most with the added CO test . But as you well know , the neglected systems are the ones that most likely will never see a CO test , not even a smoke test .

John Ruhnke

Never agree with a false statement!!!!

Ernie,

The worst thing anybody could do is agree with a false statement. It hurts the industry very badly. It causes hard work to lead to bad and sometime dangerous results.

The statement "I'm going to agree w' GL aka Firedragon on the argument that CO may not even exist in oil fired combustion that's running correctly." is DEAD WRONG!! That statement is as wrong as saying the earth is flat. Every piece of combustion equipment in the field wether it is tuned properly or not, gives off CO. EVERY PIECE OF EQUIPMENT IN THE FIELD GIVES OFF CO. I'll say it twice, it is a fact. If you can't get past that one, then you will never learn about the combustion process properly. When I tune a unit, the levels of CO tell me a lot about what is going on.

JR

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Firedragon_4

That is the saddest truth of all!

Most of us who test get to do it on homes that are well cared for and maintained.

The one's that don't get tested are those buying from discounters and having service done by those who eyeball everything including pump pressure (neat trick, BTW).

It would be nice to test for CO and I would be right at the head of the pack, as usual, but when my clients tell me flat out, 'shut up Georgie', I do the best I can with what they give me to work with. THAT'S REALITY, not a pipe dream!

Sound familiar Ron, Jr.?

Firedragon_4

I never said that CO doesn't exist on oil,

just the opposite. The problem I have is that my industry doesn't believe it does.

lchmb

umm? John?

not to throw stones on a very hot subject but you yourself in another post stated that you were not strong on burner setup? So being somewhat of a rookie in this lovely field I guess I am confused? You stated earlier that you had "another guy" set up your unit's till about three year's ago. If that is the case, why aren't you teaching? If it tell's you so much why study more? I have talked with alot of people on this and other subject's, I have read every piece of literature I could locate. And I am just a rookie. Maybe it's time we stop judging by what "we" feel is the best, take all opinion's in to the mind and move on. I to am one that feel's electronic's are the wave of the future, BUT I have personally come across two combustion analyzer's that were not functioning properly. The interesting part to that was it only came to my attention because I had a wet kit to prove it. NOTHING is perfect, just learn to do the best you possibly can!! and make sure you keep smiling..:)
BTW on a personal note, thank you Mr Lanthier and to all the other's who are willing to take the time to teach!!!


Now I will go duck so the rock's don't hit to hard..:)

John Ruhnke

It is best to say you are new..........................

I have over twenty years experience in hydronics. I won an amature auto racing championship back in 1988. I worked on the car myself. In 1985 I didn't know anything about setting up a race car. Yes I knew how to work on cars, but setting up a race car is far different. I learned from a lot of different people. Now I ask you, do you think I learned things by telling people I was knowledgeable and smart? NO!

I learned by telling everyone that I was new at this. When you want to learn, always tell the person that you want to learn from that you are new at this. They love to share there knowledge with you then. If everyone thinks you are new at it they tell you more, they take there time to explain more and you learn more. Just because I may be new at combustion doesn't meen I am raw. I know about fuel mixtures from my racing days, I can relate. The most important thing is who you learn from. If you are new at something and you learn a few pointers from someone that is the best in there business, you can gain knowledge that is more valuable then someone who has 30 years in the business. Yes, I tought my friend, who has been an oil burner technician for 30 years. Kevin thought oil burners didn't give off CO. I certain areas, my 6 months of tuning was more valuable then his 30 years, Why? Because I was taught from Jim Davis, one of the best in the business at combustion analysis.

It is not the amount of years that youy spend learning that counts. It is the quality of information that you learn and who you learn it from that counts.

I am still looking for knowledge in combustion. I feal George is real smart with burners, I feel he is one of the best in the business at cleaning and tuning oil burners. George has knowledge in areas that Jim Davis doesn't. Timmie from Gastech also has some valuable knowledge that neither Goerge or Jim has. I will most likeley want to learn from Timmie too. Why do you think I come to the wall. I come here to learn from the best in the business.

Also I care about other people. I want to share my knowledge and make the world a better place. Sharing my knowledge helps make the world a better place. Making the world a better place makes me feel good. My biggest lifes ambition is to make the world a better place. So when I see something that is not right or I feel I can make things better, I fight for it. Combustion Anylizers will make the world a better place FACT!! So I fight for them.

JR

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lchmb

I agree

I agree completely with you John that electronic's are the future!! I also agree that a new set of eye's can and will see something that an older set may miss. I just think that we also need to settle down a bit and see the entire statement before we react! Firedragon was making a statement to the way the industry in general has alway's believed, not what he know's. I also agree with you that it is not the year's spent but the thing's learned that make a person most valuable but with that said a person who feel's he is the only one with the right knowledge could get so blinded in his way's he miss's something else. A very smart tech once told me, if one think's they have the answer for everything they better quit before they hurt someone!!!
As to experience, I think your knowledge could be valuable and I hope you pursue working with others to teach everything you can. I applaud you for showing an older tech new tricks. Guess that statement about an old dog was wrong huh? Enjoy your weekend, hope it's sunny for ya!!
BTW Timmie is having an on line seminar every monday over at oiltechtalk.com..hope to see ya there!

GaryDidier

CO

Ron,

The first time I saw a digital analyser demonstrated at school I bought one on the spot. It is a tool that is far superior to the old dumbell. The big advantage is it gives you real time readings allowing you to fine tune using the screen on the unit. The addition of a CO reading helps me know when something is wrong even with my other readings correct. It can also be used to positively test for holes in heat exchangers on hot air systems.

When you do a new service, how many times have you looked through the old eff. tags and noted a wide range of readings from year to year. With the new equipment you get much more consistency and the ability to print out hard copies of the readings you took.

From a business point of view the digital equipment does take more effort and expense to maintain but it saves time on each service or call. It also gives me an edge professionally and safety wise by having the ability to test for CO.

I think our industry is doing itself a disservice by not promoting digital testing of the equipment we install and service. I used to believe that testing for Co was a waste of time but my experience and what I have learned from this site has shown me otherwise

Thanx, Gary from Granville

John Ruhnke

Lchmb............

Lchmb,

I like the statement " if one think's they have the answer for everything they better quit before they hurt someone!!" I like that statement it is simular to the one that I use " Once someone thinks they know it all, they stop learning and then end up stupid.

JR

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John Ruhnke

Sorry George...........

Sorry George,

I guess I missed the original post.

JR

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B. Tice

CO testing

I would like to say one thing. I agree with Ron Jr.'s post, however, he is in LI, home of the boiler. If you work on Oil furnaces, you should be testing for CO, and excess air. Due to the heat exchanger problems. Overall, it is nice to have the electronic unit.

Darin Cook_3

Nice try.


I defy anyone to tell me that testing the complete combustion process is not necessary regardless of the fuel or heat transfer medium.

Oil, gas, hot air, water, steam. Combustion is combustion.

Would it make all of you feel better if only 3 people died from CO produced by oil as opposed to several hundred from gas?

If you don't test, you don't know.

I would like to hear the defense of a "combustion test" that only tests for one gas. A gas which is inert.

30+ years ago, we were allowed to use 50/50 solder. We can't anymore. Why?

Tell me why a new combustion "gizmo" is bad, but the computer gizmo is good.

Understand combustion?

Better than I did 20 years ago.

So what is the argument here? Let's see.

On one side, CO is not important. "Industry experts" say so.

On the other side, CO is important. 2000+ recorded deaths say so.

Now who wants to argue wheteher a complete combustion test is necessary?

I did it wrong for many years folks. It was how we were taught.

Just like we know better about 50/50 solder and lead water lines, we know better about combustion. Bacharach made a great contribution to the industry, as many long timers will agree, many years ago. They have continued to go forward and design equipment that would take us into the 21st century.

So lead solder weas ok 37 years ago, it is not now. We all agree that some of the things that were done 37 years ago were wrong?

There are only two types of mistakes any person can make in a lifetime. ONE: Ignorance. (Didn't know any better)

TWO: Neglegence.(Knew better, but didn't care)

I just want to encourage eveyone to be the best they can be.

If you light something on fire, you better know what is happening.






Mark H

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DanHolohan

Mark?

"If you light something on fire, you better know what is happening."

Does that include cigarettes? ;-)

Tony_8

Touche !!!!

Good one, Dan !

lchmb

yea but

It's not my fault it's the guy with the horse!!

eleft_4

Ad hominem ???

Robert O'Connor_6

Irony

Irony . I think thats all it is. I'm sure you have checked the CO output of a smoke eh Al?

Regards

Robert

ME

tommyoil

Thats that !

In the words of Porky Pig, THATS ALL FOLKS !!!! On a sidenote, there is a special on PBS which will probably be on again sometime this month on the anatomy of a cigarette. They have lots to say about CO levels. I guess some are less concerned about the effects of CO in cigs than in heating equipment. Its tough to watch someone giving a lecture about the deadly effects of CO w/ a cigarette dangling from their kisser.

eleft_4

Hi Robert,


"Biting wit!"

Mark has made very valid points and is passionate on the CO issue in the combustion area of comfort products..

The CO of the tobacco infliction is not the over whelming concern of the addiction.

This product is a legal one which causes death.

Many people have had parts of their body removed because of the cancer caused by it's use and or died.
What more info can the public use to stop supporting this product?

al

DanHolohan

An experiment

I need someone who smokes, and who owns a CO detector, to take a drag and blow the smoke into the detector. I'm curious as to the reading you'll get.

Anyone willing to try this?

DaveC

Reference reading...

I tried just normal exhaling, without the cigarette - only got up to 3 ppm CO.

No wonder talking to my houseplants isn't working!

John Ruhnke

Jim Davis was doing this in class

Dan,

Jim Davis was doing this in class. He blew into a bag and tested the bag. I think it read about 9 to 15 ppm.

JR

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DanHolohan

If you found that reading

in a customer's house, would you tell them that they were in danger?

DaveC

My test was diluted...

If you see zero CO outside the home, but 15 ppm inside, you should investigate further, I would say.

John Ruhnke

Co Readings...........

Dan,

On the back of the CO experts monitor they list what to do.

0-5 ppm, no action required
6 to 9 ppm no action but watch more closely
10 to 24 ppm immediately call a HVAC service
25 to 70 ppm immediatley open all doors and windows and call your HVAC service.
Over 70 ppm or Hi immediatley GET OUT of the house then call 911 and the HVAC service.

On a note. I installed two in my parents house. My dad called me one day when the basement one said 30 ppm. I told him to open the garage door and the sliding glass door in the back, he did and the numbers dropped to 0. I went over and tested his boiler. 1300 ppm was going up the chimney. Something broke or shifted in the burner. The burner was an old oil to gas conversion about 20 or 30 years old. I adjusted it and got the flue gas to hold at around 70ppm but couldn't do better and the 02 levels were high. I have since changed the boiler.

If I didn't take Jim Davis's class and learn about combustion, If the draft got worse in the boiler or if they didn't have a CO monitor, they could have been dead by now. Things could have gotten worse and we may never have known about it until it was to late.

Over 70 kills.

I have two monitors in my house. If you leave the garage door open and the car running, a level sometimes builds up in my basement. 5-30 ppm. Leaving the basement stairs door open has caused levels to hit 15ppm on the monitor on a rare ocasion. I think the draft reverses in such an incident. The monitor on the first floor of my and my parents house almost never reads anything, though smoke from the kitchen has caused increase in levels once in a while.

I have installed the monitors into other clients houses to but never received any CO phone calls yet.



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Robert O'Connor_6

Actually

I think the smoke off the tip expells more CO.

Regards

Robert

ME

DanHolohan

Does Jim Davis

smoke cigarettes?

John Ruhnke

Yes, I think he does.............

Dan,

Yes he does.

JR

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DanHolohan

Go figure.

DanHolohan

Random thoughts

Approximate yearly deaths from CO poisoning in America: 1,000

Approximate yearly deaths from cigarette poisoning in America: 442,000.

I know one thing has nothing to do with the other, it just amuses me when someone talks about CO while sucking on a cigarette.

They do this all the time at ISH Frankfurt. You can't see from one end of the hall to the other because of the cigarette smoke, and they're talking to you about the urgent need to do something about indoor air quality.

People are so amusing.

DanHolohan

Random thoughts

Approximate yearly deaths from CO poisoning in America: 1,000

Approximate yearly deaths from cigarette poisoning in America: 442,000.

I know one thing has nothing to do with the other, it just amuses me when someone talks about CO while sucking on a cigarette.

They do this all the time at ISH Frankfurt. You can't see from one end of the hall to the other because of the cigarette smoke, and they're talking to you about the urgent need to do something about indoor air quality. While smoking.

I'm so glad I majored in sociology.

jackchips_2

So are we, Dan.

Another unrelated statistic, there are over 40,000 deaths per year on the highways.

A couple of questions on CO deaths: How many of them are suicides and how many are truly accidents? Wouldn't that bring the number involved with "heating" equipment down even lower.

It seems that unless an appliance is constantly monitored, CO could start the minute the tester leaves the site.

No answers here and no complaint with many of the things said or the things that should be done. Just a little disappointed in some of the ways some of us try and get our point across.

In closing, it's nice to see Glenn has decided to stick around. He's a valuable asset on this site.

That's my little RANT.

DanHolohan

Yes,

the message often gets lost in the screaming. Best to leave egos at the door.

DaveC

If we are going to discount \"suicides\"...

from the CO death total, then shouldn't we discount them from the cigarette death total, also - thus, bringing that number down closer to zero? xx^0

Murph'_5

mis-information will get us nowhere!!

> from the CO death total, then shouldn't we

> discount them from the cigarette death total,

> also - thus, bringing that number down closer to

> zero? xx^0





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Murph'_5

mis-information will get us nowhere!!

Statistics are always going to be skewed toward the writers point of veiw. Dan as a former smoker wants a large number so four-hundred,000 makes a veiwpoint, but... that probaly comes from different diseases that are contributed to from smoking. As lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema, and on and on.....

we could say folks are dying from liver disease, much of which is caused by narcotics, alchohol and some chemicals that folks often abuse. How many kids dye from huffing cans of paint are trying to kill themselves, they are not!! they are looking for escape from thier daily routines and stress, oh yeah!! Young kids are stressed from pressure, they escape with help from abusing substances, HABITS EVOLVE !!!

Remember this when you see people with chronic illness, what was the root cause, what caused these folks to abuse thier systems, what caused them to want to escape. was it peer pressure, pressure at work, stress from a spouse, wanting to avoid anxieties of day to day life. we have evolved from diseases of the past through modern medicine and sanitary "comforts", only to replace them with self manifested means of self-abuse.

What the real problem is, that folks want to put thier heads into the sand and not claim responsibility, or worse yet to point the finger to others for blaim. Well folks the Buck stops here, we are the highway patrol that must ticket folks and give warnings, and if they continue to put people at risk, then we must revoke thier privileges. not exactly an easy road to police but we need to start somewhere.

JIM SAYS "If we are going to discount "suicides"...
from the CO death total, then shouldn't we discount them from the cigarette death total, also - thus, bringing that number down closer to zero?" Sir, you know from reading these pages that is false assumption, has NOTHING to do with cigarettes or suicide. these are in fact accidental totals from the CDC numbers average over 2500 per year with items including autos, boats, generators and of course heating systems. These numbers do not reflect cases that go undocumented nor the survivors of CO poisonings that will continue to live with the effects forever, a few sentences denying that fact might make you "feel" better, but is does not do a thing to aid in prevention.

I did not start this post as to flame Jim (whom I do not know)but to simply point out that off topic statistics will not make a very real situation go away.

To serve the customer and the industry, safety should be the top priority, cost ,comfort ,efficiencies and longevity should follow in whatever order deemed neccasary!


Murph' (sos)



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DaveC

Sorry, then...

for the misinformation and assumptions. Actually, it was just a joke - you know, escape from stress. If you got to know me, you would see, we're not so dis-similar - I put my thong on just like you do (one foot at a time)!

DanHolohan

Smoke 'em if you got 'em!

;-)