Thinking staple up or suspended, were you?

leo g_13

sea change

Prof, when i first started plumbing bone WAS the colour that everyone had to have. about 2 years into my training, it seemed that overnight bone WAS out and white was back in. it literally changed that fast.

i think that we are seeing the same thing occuring in the hydronics feild here in N.A. i now start out trying to get my clients to use panel rads for most of their rooms, and infloor for tile or cement areas only. i have been getting more requests lately for pricing on installing panel rads.

i feel that the combo of panel and floor gives the best bang for the buck both on installation costs and running costs and COMFORT! it is less expensive to install individual room heat control for the HO this way, and saves on the extra construction material and labour costs for the floor heat.

i remember reading in a science mag when i was a pup, that to create a new crysta in the lab took many hours and a lot of energy, but after it was brought into existence, the creation process became easier. this is what is happening to the N.A. consumer of hydronics i believe. as a few become more educated, it just seems easier to keep the education rolling.

leo g

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Paul Pollets

agree, but

Why abandon Wirsbo because of their training? The methods must be taught. What we have here is an installation technique that's been adopted because it's cheaper to install...not because it "may" work under certain conditions. It's apparent that few contractors do the heat loss calcs. That's sad. I see very little difference between "forced air mentality" and the "how cheap can we go radiant" mentality. There's much more to this trade than initial installation costs.

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Kal Row

along that thought...

"Anyone building a home, doing an addition or large renovation CAN afford to do it right." and they also usually get central air, to which i always add "scorched" air - so that they dont have all their eggs in one basket and they can also get instant response when they want it

it's clear - that the inherent resistance of "staple up" conteracts half of radiant's value

Kal Row

exactly

Zurn also makes and teaches the use of their slient "clicks" fastners for staple-up - even though they also make one of the best alumanized sub-floors

S Davis

Part of the problem.

I think that is part of the design and install process, if you install a system for a customer and don't have a good control stratedgy it can be as bad for the customer as installing a under performing tube instlation, maybe not as hard to fix but still as costly.
I had a customer that was complaining about high fuel bills and wanted to upgrade their boiler, old oil fired with a gas conversion burner, I went to look at it and found that the person that installed the conversion burner had fired it hot year round, it was costing the customer about $1200.00 per month in natural gas, I installed one relay it took all of about 15 minutes and cut their bill in half, they had been using it like this for about 7 years. This was a 4500 sq ft house.
This can give radiant as bad of a name as improperly installed tube.
That is part of the problem in our area people are not learning enough in all aspects of radiant floor/hydronic work electrical/plumbing/heating, lacking knowledge in any one aspect can greatly impact the installation of a system.
IMHO there needs to be a push for education in radiant/hydronic design and installation, I have noticed a real lack of it on the west coast, most of the schools and seminars are back east.
Just curious how many of you guy's have to be licensed for low voltage electrical work? here in washington state we have to be licensed, and to keep our cards current we have to have 24 hours of continued education every 3 years.

S Davis

Dave Yates (PAH)

Wirsbo training

Wirsbo training also includes emphasis on performing your own heat loss & design work along with detailed explanation of each type of installation, which includes info on what performs good, better, best.

Our newly adopted UCC is causing lots of confusion in PA as each burg decides how to venture into the mechanical side for heat loss/gain details. The'll learn, but for now most look like a deer caught in the headlights when I hand them a 28 page Manual J report(G). They're even more confused by the radiant design programs.

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GMcD

The level of mediocrity

The common theme on all these discussions about staple up, etc. is that there are a lot of mediocre designers and installers out there that make it tough for the "good guys". While I work in a nice clean ivory tower engineering design office, I see the same things- I get depressed when the local consultants can't even get the basic conventional systems designs done properly. For example, poor controls systems design, lack of proper thermal zoning, improper calculations, and just all round lack of understanding of how HVAC systems work. But that's what the "industry standard" seems to be. Folks seem willing to accept this mediocre engineering as "the way it is". So all building design consultants are seen the same way - as a commodity service industry. Hey, I'm not perfect either, but I sure try to do the best I can do and keep my on-going professional education up to speed. Too many folks get out in the industry and put their brains in neutral and provide "design by rote" services without doing the proper full engineering approach.

Michael_6

Paul- good to see you agree. I also agree with what you have said. I should not have put that in my post (Wirsbo) I could have delivered my message with out that. It is a personal thing and that is how I feel about it. To me as long as someone is installing REHAU, STADLER or WIRSBO they are installing good time tested materials. However, I have never been a fan of the Climate panel, to me, heat transfer is on the wrong side and 5/16 tubing is to small, to much head not enough flow.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Forced Circulation

The problems you mention seem to have exploded once forced circulation became common.

[See Modern & Modernized Hot Water Heating, April, 1937 in "The Library".]

In the days of steam and gravity, plumbing and hydronics (despite similarities) seem to have been considered to be separate trades. Once that powerful circulating pump entered the scene there seems to have been a big push to integrate plumbing and hydronics. It was a LOT easier to design a system that at least works once steam and gravity were pass

Tim Doran_2

Good Article

Sounds like Siggy has run into some pretty poorly done stuff. We also hear of a few of these each year although I would say that it is only a hand full at best. The circumstances are almost always the same. No heat loss/system design, little or no insulation, unrealistic expectations, tube in the wrong place, wrong spacing, wrong application, etc.

As for those who wish to vilify us for teaching this in the mini camp I would submit that we also teach every other installation method with equal weight. John Barba explains the expectations and limitations of every method in depth. John also stresses the need for a proper heat loss and design, "do the math" is a big part of our teaching. It has been my experience to date that it is more the untrained installer than the guys that have been to some sort of training that create these problems.

We only support a suspended application not "staple up" or any of the other wierd stuff that Siggy reported seeing. I tend to view installation methods and actually pretty much everything as tools. I look at all of the installation methods, controls, pumps, boilers, and other components as tools. When I begin to work out a project I open my "tool box" and pull out the best tools for the job. I don't design too far up on curve because just like many of you, I like a little "wiggle" room for the future. On the other side of the coin, I don't use a sledge hammer to drive a finishing nail.

There are lots of variables to be considered ranging from the particular application, floor coverings, btu/hr required, heat source, control strategy, climate, use of the space, oreientation, and much, much more. No one installation method fits everything, so it is just a matter of picking the right tools for the job.

Siggy has shared with us what happens when we use the wrong tools. The real issue here is doing away with improper joist heating methods and getting everyone to do the math, not doing away with all joist heating methods. Of-course if everyone were to do the math they would realize the implications of some of these applications and this would correct the situation. DO THE MATH!


Tim D.

Michael_6

Kal,
We also put in central air in most all of our projects. But no we do not add the scorched air. You already have a well designed extremely comfortable and efficient system. Why !3@@!! it all up, blow air all over the place or fire the boiler a lot hotter than you need.

heatboy

Does the RPA..............

have definitive guidelines for when these "systems" should or can be installed? If everyone is comfortable with the 15 BTUH/ft2 is ideal, then write it in stone. If the RPA wants to be the end all of our radiant world, it's time to draw a line, so to speak.

Just because you can run 160° or higher through PEX, doesn't mean you should. All of this seems like a silly argument over trying to save installation dollars which aren't yours or mine to spend.

You want radiant, here it is. Don't want to pay for it? Buy some ductwork. Simple.

hb

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Mark Eatherton1

Well said Leo...

Times they are a changing. The only constant is change itself!

ME

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Floyd_5

Tim,

I guess I just can't understand.... unless a customer only wants to do floor warming, or they are in the southern part of the country, I can't for the life of me imagine someone wanting to take the many riske that are inherent with the suspended approach. If you know you got a bag of worms, why open it and hope for the best????
Most of what I learned and experienced out there was very benificial and well worth my time.... just could not believe that you guys approached the suspended thing like you did.
I mean come on.... with the suspended thing there will be many times that you math figures are not well in the curve and there are so many people out there that wwill take chances or just simply not do the math because it has worked for them every timee before this way. Then there is the noise thing, the critical insulation spacing, the high water temps., just way too many variables and room to screw it up.

You and John are the best and do a bang up job... just have to disagree with you on this one.... someday we'll get together again and butt heads.... :-)

Even though your smarter than me and always win....

Floyd

Tim Doran_2

Ok to disagree

Hey Floyd, I don't know about the smarter thing or the always winning but I do know that it is ok to disagree. Thats what makes the world go around. I can't speak for John Barba but my feeling is that this is just another way of doing things. I agree that there are many variables to consider and as long as project allows, suspended pipe could be one of them. I also feel that it is better to show the right way, time, and place to use something vs. ignoring it. Siggy's story is proof that leaving folks to their own devices is risky. I still suspect that most of the "bad" installations come from untrained installers. I can tell you that in the past year or so I have only had three of these types of situations come to me and the common theme of no heat loss, no design, no training, no clue withstands.

If I were in your shoes I would be concerned with the guys that don't come to training more than the guys that come through here. In addition to John's great work we also have a strong team in the field and a great technical support group. Guys just have to ask and we are there.


It's kinda like talking to your kids about sex. You hope that they wait for the right person, time, place, and so on but there is a good chance that they will experiment so you had better cover your bases.

Tim D.

siggy

the under-informed

Tim,

I would certainly agree that the majority of the bad workmanship and "undefined" methods of installing tubing are coming from under-informed installers and tubing suppliers.

Thanks for your efforts to delineate the acceptable situations for plateless installations.

This is a critical issue that should to stay on the front burner in all upcoming radiant training sessions so that another crop of underperforming systems is not created during the 2004 building season.

siggy

Mike Wallace

Here is a study

The following is from an ASHRAE funded study conducted at Kansas State University which evaluated the performance of four different configurations of tubing and insulation. Two used aluminum heat-transfer plates and two did not. One of the plate-equipped systems and one of those without plates were insulated with rigid foam insulation pressed tightly against the underside of the tubing; in the remaining two, the insulation was suspended beneath the tubing, leaving a 2-inch air gap. All four assemblies used identical 1/2" pex tubing stapled to the underside of the subfloor at 9" o/c. The researchers found that when 140 degree F. water was circulated through the system, the plate-equipped test assemblies increased heat transfer to the living space by between 160% and 172% compared to the systems without plates. The placement of the insulation accounted for that relatively minor variation in Btu output with the closely insulated tubing transferring more heat than the tubing with the air gap did.

The following are the Btu outputs that were achieved during the test. System with no plates, 5/8" air gap achieved a 23.5 btu/hr/ft^2 output. System with no plates, 2" air gap achieved a 26.2 btu/hr/ft^2 output. System with plates, 2" air gap achieved a 42 btu/hr/ft^2 output and the system with plates, 5/8" air gap achieved a 46.3 btu/hr/ft^2 output.

I personally feel that these btu outputs are high, but the bottom line is (if you believe the data from this study), a system using aluminum plates "puts out" about twice as many btu's as a system without. Why would you install a system without plates, even if you are looking for floor warming?

(portions of this message are from ASHRAE Research Project 1036).

Unknown

why?

You could get the most output from a slab if you ran the tubing 6" on center all the time. Do you do that? No? Why not?

Because it's not necessary to do so all the time.

Plates make sense in the *majority* of underfloor systems out there. Not all. It's really quite simple. If you run the numbers and design with rigor, do what makes sense. If you do not, "play it safe". If you are designing with rigor, however, you should not have to "play it safe". You should know what will work, what will work well, and what is cost effective for the project you are working on.
_______________________________

Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC

Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

Kal Row

this thread is fuel for anti radiant old-timers...

cause at the end of the day
baseboard or forced air is a lot more forgiving of ignorance

Paul Pollets

Ignorance...

...may prevail, but I believe that those contractors who know how to do the heat loss and make radiant work in all scenarios, have lots more to offer in the world of comfort than baseboard. NRT Rob said it as well. There's no excuse for not understanding the basic concepts. The industry is faced with the "dumbing down" of hydronics. Much is due to the lack of technical (and sales) skills in the marketplace. Learn what you need to know....and learn it well. Than we won't have to spend so much time on the basics.

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Dave_13

I agree!!!!

I agree on the dumbing down theory. I have been engrossed in this radiant heating for 2 years now. I read every book and am on this site at least 5 times a day!!! I am a controls engineer by day and deal with the newest technologies, modulating burners, boilers, pump curves, etc.. What I have learned is it is not easy to "CORRECTLY" design a radiant system- there is really a lot involved and a lot to know. More then I ever thought when I first came on to this site. I have had the pleasure of re-doing a few friends systems that were installed improperly from the git-go. I still find these systems amazing and figure with technology like it is, it's only gonna get better! Yeck- I'm already thinking of a career change!!!

Kal Row

then there are boilers with

built in pri-sec-injection and tekmar - that are even more forgiving to stupidty!!! - and really close the efficency gap a lot - there was a guy in past thread that had his contractor install a WM ULTRA all wrong and was still doing pretty good with it

siggy

Kal,

You state that baseboard and forced air are more forgiving of poor installation. I respectfully have to disagree.

How many times have we both seen forced air systems with inadequate supply or return ducting? Don't even get me started down memory lane on this one.

How many times have we seen baseboard systems with an inadequately heated room at the end of a series circuit?

I would certainly support the idea that if an installer only wants to deal with baseboard and forced air - and not learn to do radiant heating correctly - that they should stay out of the radiant market - completely out of it. Leave it alone for those who will do it properly.

The bottom line is that any type of heating needs proper design, and proper design involves time, effort, and money. Installers without such design knowledge are not heating professionals. Perhaps they should call themselves pipe solderers, wrench turners, or wire strippers, but not heating professionals. To me the term heating professional implies a constant willingness, even eagerness, to improve with each system. It's the attitude and pride of being a true craftsman, not just the expectation of a paycheck that makes the difference.

siggy

siggy

Kal,

You state that baseboard and forced air are more forgiving of poor installation. I respectfully have to disagree.

How many times have we both seen forced air systems with inadequate supply or return ducting? Don't even get me started down memory lane on this one.

How many times have we seen baseboard systems with an inadequately heated room at the end of a series circuit?

I would certainly support the idea that if an installer only wants to deal with baseboard and forced air - and not learn to do radiant heating correctly - that they should stay out of the radiant market - completely out of it. Leave it alone for those who will do it properly.

The bottom line is that any type of heating needs proper design, and proper design involves time, effort, and money. Installers without such design knowledge are not heating professionals. Perhaps they should call themselves pipe solderers, wrench turners, or wire strippers, but not heating professionals. To me the term heating professional implies a constant willingness, even eagerness, to improve with each system. It's the attitude and pride of being a true craftsman, not just the expectation of a paycheck that makes the difference.

siggy

S Ebels

I really like posts like this

Seem's that it takes a post that is a bit confrontational to get everyone going. But!!, BOY HOWDEEEEE! when we get going do we ever go!!! When all of us get involved in a topic I can practically see the old grey matter pulsing across the web. There is so much to learn here and the field of radiant heating has soooooooooo many methods and options available thet I don't know if any two installs would ever be the same down to the last nut and bolt.

Keep it up guys and let's find another issue to roll on.

How about Euro control strategies VS typical on/off. How many think this is THE WAY and THE TRUTH!! for hydronic nirvana?

How about Viessmann? Are they REALLY worth the price?

How about long term service issues and costs for gas VS oil??


And the beat goes on DA DA DA DA dut dut DA DA DA and the beat goes on.

Kal Row

ok, perhaps a better phrase would be

more "forgiving", as in easier to fix bugs after the fact,
and i will concede, that it's more feeling than fact, but marketing is everything - after all, we have to market it to the customer,

experience taught us that:
you can add alternate return air paths to air

you can always add regular or thermostatic bypasses upstream in a lousy series loop

radiant has such a “permanence” to it – if you screw it up – it stayed screwed – we got stuck

steam was tougher – it’s easy to screw up and it usually stayed screwed –

I spent a good part of my career “un-screwing” other’s mistakes

that’s the crux of my whole aversion to staple up – how do you un-screw it

the big known radiant – of the past, was Levittown – and it when it died – it stayed dead,
I am not sure, the slant-fin corp would even exist today, if not for that

So when, due to the energy crunch, engineers went back to the drawing board, and realized that heating by infrared light was the best, – not to mention that 110f supply and 90 return from a slab, allowed you to suck every btu out of flue gases.

So they looked at the main problem, and invented PEX, then they looked at the second big problem – that’s us wetheads, and brought us education, - the jury is still out on the third big problem, - that of, customer education!!!

So it's the technology leap, and the input from educators like you, that have made radiant unlikely to need forgiveness to begin with

Constantin

There is hope

Energy prices are creeping up faster than they have in the past. This in turn will make folks reconsider their heating and cooling strategies and perhaps lead to the quicker introduction of advanced technologies in the US. However, overcoming the almighty installation cost is the biggest issue over here.

Simply put, Americans move too much to benefit from most long-term investments. Therefore, everything they tend to buy is cheap and has high operating costs. In the computer industry this manifested itself in PC's versus Apple, where the latter has a much lower life-cycle cost. Apple certainly had something to do with it, but the unwillingness to undertake/high cost of capital investments has shot more than one company in the foot.

There is no reason why the sulfur reductions in heating oil could not be phased in faster, easing the use of condensing oil boilers/furnaces. I'd love to be able to have a condensing oil unit, the best of both worlds up here in the cold, gasless NE of the states. For the long term In the Northeast where both of us live, I doubt that oil will become more expensive than gas per BTU.

As for service costs of gas vs. oil, I am not at all convinced these trends are going to change much. From the little I have seen, a diligent homeowner should expect to pay about the same for his/her annual checkup. The simple truth is that most folks with gas appliances never inspect them, because that "feature" was sold to them along with the unit. A good full-service oil company will do the annual maintenance as a matter of business and still deliver more BTU's for less money than the local gas company (at least around here).

What I really want is more manufacturers to reap the benefits of adaptive technology: Infinite modulation, variable-speed blowers and pumps, excellent control logic to match the heat loss to a T. It can be done today, but it would probably be considered cutting edge instead of "normal". I'm having a lot of fun revisiting control strategies from my college days...

As for Viessmann, I have seen some very impressive details with regard to these units. There is no reason why there should not be price differentiation in the heating industry... just as there is in most industries consisting of expensive products that are mass-customized for their respective markets. However, Viessmann seems to enjoy their Porsche-like pricing for the moment. History will tell if that's a sustainable position as other companies start rolling out their visions of the future.

heatboy_30

One of the best thread of all time....

Found this thread searching Google for something else. This one goes way back., but is probably more relevant now with all of the nonsense the Internet has bestowed upon us. Lots of names who are scarce, nowadays.

Paul Pollets

Best Thread!

I'd agree HB...the argument still hasn't sunk in. I had 2 calls this week from homeowners in Seattle who purchased materials from an internet company for plateless RFH (from You Know Who) and wanted to hire us to put it in. I gave them both the polite refusal and reasons why I wouldn't do a project without plates.