Thinking staple up or suspended, were you?

Tim Doran_2

Thanks John

I appreciate the input. As an industry we tend to lump staple up, suspended tube, and joist heating together and I feel that there are some significant differences. I have seen pictures and graphs as well as what I would call a thermal image of these various installations and in the suspended tube one there was a temperature spike directly above the tube just as in the staple up one except that it was much less pronounced. Is this just increased convection or is it direct IR impacting the bottom of the floor at the steepest angle as I suspect? Isn't it true that all objects radiate to things that are colder? Does the angle of impact make a difference. I think I saw a post about this sort of stuff a while ago but never realy dug into it.

Ted

John Abbott

Mark.......

I couldn't agree more about misaplication and your point about the consequenses of future floor coverings.I personally don't install systems that are "on the naked edge" if it is too close to maxed out I add plates or supplemental heat but I am enough of a realist to know that a minority of contrators(NOT FROM THE WALL) put profits ahead of function.I have declined many jobs that I wasn't comfortable with.That company from Vermont has contributed to giving staple up/suspended a bad name and that is bad for the industry.I just hate to be painted with the same brush as the MIS-applicators.I tried in my post not be "nasty"to anyone If I failed I apologize.

John

GMcD

Thermal mass time response

Rather than try to repeat some already good stuff that someone else has done, take a read through this powerpoint document and what you'll find there are the formulas and specific factors you'll need to use:

www.bigwalls.net/johnm/thermalmass/Thermal.ppt

Mark Eatherton1

Good job John...

that's what a professional WOULD do. Keep the bar high.

ME

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Weezbo

To me plateless is just another option....

it has its place,and its challanges. i wouldnt write it off because there is higher heat requirements either..supplemental plates along the perimiter,small piece of base board under windows,maybe a pannel,we know how to do it...been done for decades...

Troy_3

I'm with you Mark!

That is my position also! If it will work at design, barely,then what happens below that. Or when perameters change a little? Very rarely do the floor coverings go in the new house as planned from inseption. That is my real life experience. We had a month of weather this Jan. that was 25deg. below design. You got nothin left. At least I can push the heat required with plates. We saw staple up jobs that would not go above 50 deg. Guess what the homeowners weren't happy. We did not install them. They don't want to hear how they saved a $1 per sq. ft. by not getting plates. They wanted to sue.

radiant_4

staple up radiant

Would you advise staple up radiant with geothermal AND no plates knowing some flooring was going to be carpet? Our design was done by Heatway and our installer said gypcrete and/or plates not necessary. Obviously we are not happy customers. Three years and still no resolution - radiant people blame geothermal; geothermal point finger at radiant. Can't recommend either; especially since getting contractors to agree and take responsibility is impossible. Thanks for the opportunity to vent.

heatboy

Mark.

I see that you have switched to condensing boilers, for the most part. What is your opinion of plateless systems now?

hb

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Troy_3

That's what hurts

I bet he wishes his contractor wasn't so eager to save him money. I get very tired of loosing jobs to the genious who found the short cut. And then won't return when mr. homeowner isn't happy. I have seen so many radiant jobs that work great down to about 20 deg. That is not acceptable. I agree it comes to proper design. I also know that the assumptions we plug into our designs don't always pan out. Does the homeowner still have the right to expect his home to heat? Finger pointing doesn't cut it. If you are livin on the razors edge with your designs you better be ready to be cut. Or back yourself up completely. Cus my design after the fact will always be more accurate. If we won't or can't police ourselves than the public will lose faith.

Troy_3

geothermal + radiant

If you are the unhappy homeowner from Buffalo call me. Maybe I can help 716-649-5723

S Ebels

Plainly stated

A geo unit won't drive a suspended or staple-up application. The available water temp is not high enough.
You'll probably have to stage in a boiler to get the temps you need at outdoor design levels. Sorry to hear of your problems. It gives radiant as a whole a black eye.

Kal Row

i refuse a job if i dont believe in it...

Because 5% of your customers, are responsible for 95% of you troubles, so you just fire that 5% - and have a nice day

I lean completely in the opposite direction, to me, staple up under a floor – even with plates – is too much of a compromise – in the floor’s resistance value – not to mention the time delay – and the NOISE that sounds like mice in the rafters – the radiant industry has done a great job of enticing homeowners, but not so good a job of “ed-ju-me-ka-ting” them about just leaving it on – somehow, they still expect rapid response times, and a thermostat per-room type of zoning

just you wait – the next big thing could be 4x8 or larger sized flat panel metal radiators – for radiant heat – mounted on the wall or ceiling, and painted or mural-ed, cause the response time of such – is as fast as you can get the 110f water to it – lets face it, radiant costs so much more up front – if you cant run it with 110f supply and 90f return, to maximize condensing utilization, then what’s the point. The resistance values for most staple-ups, are simply to high.

for now, my customers gets only these choices on regular floors:

aluminized sub floor (STRONGLY recommend!!!),
Gypsum, or
Concrete

staple-up with plates and the silent “clicks” fasteners from Zurn is an option for bedroom ceilings or shower stalls only – though for the next bedroom floor I do, I am thinking of recommending aluminized sub floor installed upside down with the sheetrock screwed to it – what-d-ya-guys think??? heck – you can even do that on a wall, infra-red light really doesn’t care, but unfortunately, would be likely to get picture hooks screwed right into the pex – maybe, that’s why “myson” hasn’t made 4x8 panels yet

I am new at doing radiant and need feedback – I may simply have the wrong notions – so, feel free to rag on me, though, so far, I haven’t read, or experienced anything that says, I am dead wrong

siggy

the details?

Mark,

I don't own a service company, nor do I solicit or advertise for forensic engineering. I can however assure you I get more calls, e-mails, and faxes than I want or would have anticipated about under-performing radiant installations. A good percentage of them are from attorneys looking for expert witnesses (something I've chosen not to do).

I would like nothing better than the situation you describe of "NEVER, NEVER, NEVER" getting such calls. I'm sure the other hydronic pros on the wall would prefer this as well.

The fact that these calls do come my way demonstrates that the entity responsible for the original installation is not resolving the problem. This is why I feel there is a significant problem with misapplication of plateless staple-up systems.

Can you describe to us in detail how you handle a home with a design heating load of say 25-30 Btu/hr/sq. ft. in most room with plateless staple up? You mention that you use supplemental heat where appropriate. What type of supplemental heat? How do you control it? What do you do if your client doesn't want to look at the supplemental heaters? What is the cost of using supplemental heat versus plates? Do you use condensing boilers with any of these systems?

Can you share these details with us?

Siggy

Mark Eatherton1

Wall panels work...

and have actually been around for decades.

We did a Habitat for Humanity home with them, and the owner says it's the most comfortable home he's ever been in.

When you think about it, the more exposure the human body "sees" from the radiant source, the more warmth it will experience. You have to think of radiant as being a light source, like a big flash light, and the bigger the shadow your body casts, the more energy it intercepts.

From the ceiling or the floor, the shadow cast is quite a small profile. From the side, the shadow cast is very substantial, especially in my case:-)

Radiant energy is radiant energy, and its effect on surrounding mass is to raise the MRT. The MRT doesn't care where the radiant energy comes from.

The human body absolutely doesn't care where the MRT comes from, so long as it mimicks it's own surface temperature.

I think radiant floors are over rated. There ARE less expensive alternatives available that will still provide radiant comfort. I'm with you Kal.

ME

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heatboy

Each of us.........

has to draw a line in the sand at some point. Joist bay without plates in any application other than floor tempering is my line in the sand. Too many variables none of us can see that may sabotage our efforts to even give it serious thought consideration. With high quality extruded plates, ThermoFin being the highest, any heat source can be utilized. I have junk water heaters, electric boilers, wood stoves running radiant. They can all be upgraded when budgets allow. The thing that cannot be ubgraded, feasibly, is the distribution and deliver systems. I will not compromise that part of the equation. Period. You can't afford a Vitodens right now? Fine, use something else, but don't screw the future of the system trying to "keep the price down to get the job" or fit into some hypothetical budget. All budgets are hypothetical, in my opinion. I create the budget for the system selected, not the other way around.

The laws of physics will outweigh the laws of economics everytime.

hb

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Even in 1937!

My Uncle, the engineer, gave me his copy of "Heating, Ventillating and Air Conditioning Fundamentals" by Severns & Fellows (2nd edition) shortly before he moved to the other side of the lawn. They wrote about radiant heating with the use of wall panels quite extensively using all of the same terms we see today such as MRT. Although a good deal of their radiant engineering talk centers around hydronics, a very large portion is devoted to hot air radiant systems! That's right - forced hot air radiant - including wall panels! They've got drawings and designs for entire homes being radiantly heated by forced hot air. The day I discovered that set of chapters was one shortly after his funeral. Would that I'd had an opportunity to pick his brains about these issues and his background in more detail.

Want to know why this book captivates my attention? It's copyright is 1937. They hit on many of the same points seen in our training today. Things like MRT, how the human body loses heat & why radiant so closely matches our needs for comfort. FHA radiant - who'd a thunk it!

But, I can attest to the fact that suspended tube installations can be readily compromised if just a few things get lost in the communication stream between installer and other trades as well as the homeowners. We've just finished a large retro-fit to replace a dysfunctional suspended tube application that went far south of the performance needed.

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DanHolohan

And check out

some of the old literature in the Library. Nothing really that new nowadays.

Mark Hunt

Condensing boilers


No doubt that plates keep water temps down.

I am not saying that plates have no use, I am saying that there are not always necessary.

Mark H

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Here I go splitting hairs again--sorry.

I'm fairly certain that the MRT must be somewhat below the temperature of our skin for comfort.

------------------------------------------------

Like all mammals, the very processes of our living produce significant internal heat--an internal heat that must stay within a very tight range of temperature.

Right now, it's 78° in my office and about 77.3° outside. Ceilng fan is running at medium-high, and there is a light wind (about 7 mph outside) blowing just across my seating position because I'm in the diagonal path of two open windows and the wind direction is favorable.

My exposed (forearm) skin temperature is 88.7°. The mean radiant temperature of the space (estimate of course) is 79.9°.

I'm lightly clothed, wearing sandals and in perfect thermal comfort.

With the exception of the rear of the computer monitor, I am the warmest thing in the space. This means that every square inch of exposed surface of my body is LIBERATING heat to my environment via radiation. An guess what? My brain is AUTOMATICALLY directing my body to loose the maximum amount of heat via radiation. I'm holding my arms quite extended from my body even though I'm typing. My legs are spread quite widely and my feet are just "wanting" to stay wide as well (almost a frog-leg stance).

Again, recall that the mean radiant temperature is about 9° COOLER than my skin.

Now I closed the windows and turned off the fan. Guess what? I'm nearly instantly a bit too warm. Without shedding clothing, my body has ALREADY done everything it can do to loose heat via radiation. So what's the next thing my body does to loose more heat?

My mouth opens slightly and some of my exhaled air begins to flow through my mouth. Strange huh? Why? Air exhaled through my nostrils is 90.1°; air exhaled through my mouth is 94.1°. Air doesn't hold too much heat and the temperature difference is slight, but you give off more heat exhaling through your mouth than through your nose! Air coming out of the mouth is also more humid (more latent heat) than that coming from the nose and even though water is precious to our body, it will give up some in this way before it takes more drastic measures.

The next thing that happens is extremely primitive. The tiny muscle at the base of each of my body hairs is trying to raise my "fur"--I can actually feel it. Why? To expose as much of my "fur" as possible give off radiant heat and to expose as much of my skin as possible to any air movement. Again, it's not much, but my body is actually trying to increase its heat loss first through radiation and then through convection.

If I don't open the windows or turn on the fan I'm not going to be terribly uncomfortable (for a while it least--it's 10:40 a.m. right now and it's supposed to be warm and sunny all day), and I'm certainly not going to overheat and die. But, a couple of things WILL happen.

Sensing that my body core temperature is trying to rise and unable to stop it via simple means, my brain will tell my body to "slow down the production of heat". But, my body can't really slow the production of heat--it can only slow its processes somewhat to allow less heat to be produced. As long as I'm not moving too much and don't eat a big meal, I'll stay reasonably comfortable and reasonably alert. Let the room get too warm in the afternoon and add a good-sized meal and I'll get slow, tired and less able to think coherently.

My skin will also start to sweat--sweating is our last line of defense when it comes to cooling our body. Water is a precious resource to our body and it really doesn't want to give it up, but it will do so (even in bulk) if absolutely necessary.

-------------------------------------------------

Now say that I surround by body with a mean radiant temperature identical to my skin--about 88.7°. I will NOT be comfortable. My body will be incapable of loosing heat via radiation unless it raises the temperature of my skin--it will try to do this by opening blood vessels near the skin surface as widely as possible--this will make me feel "hot". I'll start feeling quite lazy and even the look of heavy physical work will make me feel "tired". I'll start sweating quite liberally. As long as it can evaporate reasonably rapidly I might not get drenching wet, but I certainly won't be comfortable.

--------------------------------------------

So what is the "perfect" mean radiant temperature? Great question that I can't answer, but I suspect that there is no one "perfect" answer. My guess is that a range between about 65° - 75° will keep most in very good comfort within a broad range of physical activity level.

GMcD

Human Comfort

Do a Google search on terms like "human comfort" and "mean radiant temperature" and you'll get a lot more scientific papers and examples of the total human comfort equation. There is some good stuff at: http://support.caed.asu.edu/radiant/ For the indoor environment, the human comfort equation is made up of about 50% mean radiant, 35%-40% convection (air movement/velocity) and about 10%-15% evaporation (perspiration/ambient humidity). Any one of these three factors can be changed to compensate for a lack of, or an abundance of the other to reach a form of comfort equilibrium. In a low velocity air movement environment, the "resultant temperature" (the temperature the human body "feels")is the average of the mean radiant temperature and the ambient air temperature, with a minor skew for the ambient humidity conditions. Based on my research and study of other papers and research by others, the human head is the primary temperature sensor on the body, followed by the extremities- hands, feet. I'm a firm believer in the best radiant system applications being in the ceiling as the best solution for comfort as well as practicality and energy efficiency. Radiant floors are nice, but they are a "heating only" partially complete comfort system. While one can get some partial radiant cooling from the floor, it is very limited and not the best application. The issue on a larger scale is that radiant temperature control systems are being marketted and installed by folks who see these as a "heating system application" or a "building mechanical system application" and in fact the climate control system in a building really needs a "whole building approach" so the building itself is part of the climate control system, and the other bits and pieces are the tweaks that make the human comfort a total package.

Jed_2

That's Exactly why

I do not design heating systems around National Weather Service data. If I did that, around here, I,d be giving away baseboard, plates, even boilers. My approach is "local convention". According to my area, I should be using -11° as my outside design temp. Been that way for years. BUT, not around here. Last winter we had a solid month not go above -15. So I design by "local convention". Not one complaint when it was -25 for a week.

Plates? Pretty much a must where I view it. And I have heard a few stories about suspended/staple up/joist hung problems. But that's just around here, central/northern Maine.

Jed

Mark Eatherton1

Not only are you splitting hairs...

but you're also making them stand up on the back of your neck!

Points well taken Mike. I over stated my case in an effort to dramatize the effects of MRT on human comfort. You are correct on all cases. I've been in basements where the MRT was approcahing 85 degress F due to downward loss from a radiant floor above, and it was NOT comfortable. "Whaddya mean heat doesn't rise?" quoth the misinformed homeowner...

ME

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Mark Eatherton1

Radiant Ceilings...

in my estimation are one of the most mis-overlooked and underapplied applications for radiant comfort that there is.

Why do we cover every square foot of a residential floor with tube even if its not necessary? Because if we didn't and the HO stepped onto a section of floor that wasn't as warm as the rest of the floor, a light bulb would go off over their head and a memory bubble would pop up saying "Didn't I pay for a radiant floor heating system?" Even if they're PERFECTLY comfortable, it would still happen.

And how expensive is it to cover every square foot of floor, when it might only be necessary to do the ceilings with the last four foot exterior band?

Don't get me wrong, radiant floors DO have their perfect applications, like the bathroom. Period.

I'm just as guilty of this as the next contractor, and it's not driven by greed. It's driven by the fact that very few people are willing to take a chance and try doing a surface other than the floor to provide radiant comfort. I've spec'd it numerous times, to no avail. Consumers are creatures of habit and comfort.

The funny thing is that radiant ceilings have been in use and existence for a LONG time here in Denver. 3/8" copper tube imbedded into the lath and plaster ceilings of homes built in the 30's and 40's and beyond. The consumers think that they live in a home with radiant floors because the floor is never really cool to the touch!

Time to step back and take another look at this radiant heating thing?

I for one think so...

I'll bet you a box of Duncan Donuts that if they did a segment of This Old House featuring radiant ceilings, the consumers would be SCREAMING for the application. You listening to this conversation Mr.Trethewey?

Radiant comfort for HALF the cost of a radiant floor application!!!

ME

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GMcD

Right ON

Now, the next step is to get stuff like the Karo capillary tubes UL approved so more folks can use ceiling applied products like that without hassle, and in an economical manner, and we bring back the plastering trades. I was recently trying to help out an architect in the SE area of the US and he was all pumped to use radiant ceilings with the Karo product until the local Building Inspector said only if it was UL approved (it isn't....yet) or if a State licensed PE did the full design and inspected the installation. Too bad the architect could not find a State licensed PE who was even familiar with radiant systems, let alone capillary tube ceiling installations...so he's having to go back to conventional approaches. I see the next step in building engineering and design to take the form of "building physics" and that means that there will be a need for building physics specialists/generalists rather than the conventional linear building design process where one specialist designs the building, and then hands it off to other system specialists to try to adapt their particular systems to the designed building.

John Abbott

Mark.......

You have really got my attention now.Do you know how much warming affect a radiant ceiling would have on different bare flooring material's from different ceiling heights? My other thought is are we going to increase air temps at the ceiling and if so are we affecting the overall energy efficency?

John

GMcD

Radiant heating ceilings

I'll chip in here: radiant energy is omni-directional for all practical purposes. A radiant heating and cooling ceiling will tend to create an overall stable surface temperature on any and all objects and surfaces within the space, under steady state conditions, including the floor surfaces. If there is minimal heat loss through the floor, then the floor will generally be at the same temperature as the ceiling surface, if air movement is minimal. Air movement in a space will slightly influence the ambient surface temperatures in the space. Yes, a radiant heating ceiling will create slightly warmer overall air temperatures at the high levels in a vaulted ceiling configuration since there will be thermal plumes from warm things in the room (lights, people, TV sets, computers, etc.). This is not really as extreme in a flat ceiling configuration. With a vaulted or flat ceiling configuration, it is important to try to draw off that warm stratified upper level air and run it through an air to air heat recovery ventilator for best energy efficiency anyway, whether one is using a radiant floor or ceiling system.

-------------------

Now, that being said, the difference in the high altitude air temperatures in a radiant ceiling heating system configuration versus a radiant floor configuration is almost moot. Remember, radiant energy will tend to try to make uniform steady state surface temperatures everywhere in a space, so the radiant heating floor will also be warming the ceiling surface as well, provided the heat losses through the ceiling are minimal. The thermal plumes from warmer objects in the space will be the dominant force in creating the air temperature at the high spaces of a radiant room anyway. Radiant energy is dominated by surface temperatures rather than distance from the emitter. Remember the earlier discussion about Boltzman's Law- radiant energy is dependent on temperature to the fourth power. Small changes in surface temperature using a large surface area, result in greater differences in radiant energy transfer compared to changes in the distance from the emitter (radiant surface). It is my experience that a radiant ceiling configuration will result in better overall energy efficiency since the ceiling is not going to get covered by insulating materials like carpets, etc., and you will have much better control on the operation and surface temperatures of the radiant ceiling surface compared to floor radiant surfaces. A ceiling offers pretty well the same surface area as a floor system, so all things being equal, a radiant ceiling system in a room with a carpet will definetly be more efficient than a floor radiant system in that room. There are much less surface temperature constraints on a radiant ceiling system compared to a radiant floor system.

Kal Row

all fine - as long as...

you are not sitting in a cold room with a cold floor, and your exposed legs under the table

yeah - that stupid under table cold feet thing, keeps popping up - why cant they just wear socks

then there is the baby on the cold granite floor over the garage which is soaking up every drop of radiant….

nah – typically it’s ceilings for bedrooms, bathrooms all around, and underneath everywhere else, but you have to design for the probable load, if it’s a carpeted, TV den, then it belongs in the ceiling – look what the people are going to be covered by and in contact with

currently have a situation where I have a zoned baseboard setup, and on the grade level, by the piano near a window, beside an insulated garage, and on top of an insulated floor, with the room at 70-72, the girl still feels cold by the piano, I think, I am going to tee into the baseboard, opposite the piano, a 24x63 myson panel, and let the panel be gravity fed, from the baseboard (there is 5gpm in that zone – don’t need a mono-flow T for such a low speed load – just up-in at one end and down-out the other end – and I will still need to thermostatic valve it down) – I am waiting for myson, to get back to me with the effective radiant throws and temps – the “piannah” is 10ft away from the baseboard wall, so I could get losses due to light spread – need the hard data – the HO just paid for a fancy new system, and while it is much more comfortable over there, than it’s ever been, it’s not, enough, so no more guessing, I only get one more shot at this and localized “heat-loss’ calc was useless in this situation – “the cold 70”!!!

S Davis

Radiant Ceilings

Radiant ceilings can be very comfortable, but the one thing I have noticed is if you put your legs under a table(like a coffee table) they feel cold.
The other thing is controlling water/surface temp, I have been in homes that were not designed properly that actually gave you a headache.
I guess it is just like anything else it needs to be designed and installed properly:-)

S Davis

John Abbott

a lot..........

of good information.

Thanks,

John

GMcD

Cold floors

Snipped:
"you are not sitting in a cold room with a cold floor, and your exposed legs under the table"

---------------------

Ahh, but why is the floor cold in the first place? Heat losses from an un-insulated floor?

---------------------

"then there is the baby on the cold granite floor over the garage which is soaking up every drop of radiant…."

----------------------

Same question as above- why is the granite floor cold? If it was properly insulated underneath, it would tend to be near the ceiling radiant heat emitter's temperature. Again, it has to be whole building approach to get the building physics right in the first place.

hot_rod

ME

what would the installation method be that could cut half of the cosst out? Seems you would still need transfer plates or a way to contact the sheetrock. Seems 120 max temperature for sheetrock, as I recall.

I'm more attracted to ceiling than wall, Hardly ever see a home with out wall covered in pictures, art, etc. Rather not risk that, unless to load could be met with the below 4 foot level.

Think I would still like bath and kitchen radiant, those are the two places I stand cold, wet, and hungry

hot rod

Kal Row

a stone floor over a cold space

with r30 underneath is still cold - cause the humans don’t measure temperature, only whether the heat is flowing in or out, of the body, and a stone floor at over a garage with r30 – even under radiant – is not going to be more than 75 tops, and will feel cold to the touch – as opposed to the same floor with the radiant in it - stone is funny that way – the real question is – who – with babies – has a stone floor – but that’s a whole “nother” thread – well outside the scope of “the wall” – don’t even get me started on that stupidity, there are way too many infant concussions, out there, in the emergency rooms of the world – people sacrificing child safety for vanity…..sorry, it’s one of the buttons that sets me off

Mark Hunt

John


This just ain't that important right now.

I will take time to answer you later.

Now I have a friend that is in need.

Mark H

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Mark Eatherton1

HR...

I've not run the numbers side by side, but it would tend to reason that if you cut the square footage of radiant surface by half, then the radiant panel costs would have a tendency to follow. The heat source and distribution cost area still there, but the radiant panel cost, which are significant, can be cut way back. In addition to that, you have eliminated the cost of gypcrete at ~ $2.00 per square foot.

I too have heard the limitation on sheet rock of 120 degrees F, and I wonder where that came from? Is it a paint issue, a mud joint issue or a sheetrock paper issue. I have seen ceilings running at much higher than 120 degrees with no discernable problem, but they were the 1940's metal lathe and plaster variety. But look at it this way, even if the limit were 120 degrees F, the ceiling will still put out a LOT more btuH than a floor limited to 85 degrees F.

In my estimation, heat transfer plates still make a lot of sense. I know Dale is working on some thin gage stuff, and I suspect it is for surfaces other than floors.

Remember the problem of short crawl spaces and wanting to hire the height disadvantaged people from the wizard of Oz... Well now we'll have to find a market for GIANTS like the one in The Big Fish story to do radiant ceilings!

I'm still a firm believer in your theory and premise of "Radiant EVERYTHING".

ME

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Mark Eatherton1

Not just designed and installed correctly...

but also CONTROLLED correctly. Even the best RFH system can be uncomfortable if improperly controlled.

Continuous circ with outdoor AND indoor reset rings a bell here. DING!

ME

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Floyd_5

Geeeeeeesssssss, Mark!!!!!

Half these guys think that a plated system is like trying to sell people a "Cadillac" system.......

Now....

You go and up the anty to a "Rolls Royce"!!!!!!


:-)


Floyd

Kal Row

know anybody whose used the yellow stuff..

for Georgia Pacific - the sheetrock sandwiched by fiberglass instead of paper, with fiberglass reinforced gypsum, for indoor radiant, that should handle higher temps – (not to mention, a leak, heaven forbid) – from the looks of it – it could even handle being walked on.

Look at the following link – this stuff is amazing
http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pname=DensGlass+Gold®+Exterior+Guard&pid=1509&hierarchy=pc

Kal Row

yeah right

as if, you cheeped out, on that gorgeous job with the ULTRAs and the MYSONs

I know you we kidding, – nevertheless, a tekmar 512 plus slab and outdoor sensors per room is very little as compared to the cost of such a system, ME’s point is well taken

Michael_6

What is everyone doing under the subfloor anyway? You should always be on top of the floor whenever possible. Only if it is impossible and it must be done under, then only with plates! If any supplemental is needed then a bit of radiant ceiling along the perimeter as much as necessary. And rubber tubing c'mon....? We also use Viessmann only. Anyone building a home, doing an addition or large renovation CAN afford to do it right. It is whether YOU believe it or not that will convince them where to spend the money. We stopped using Wirsbo a few years ago not because of their equipment but because of their teaching of the most basic systems to the masses who leave the camp run home and put RADIANT EXPERTS on their vehicles. Then sell suspended tube jobs with high temp low mass boilers, on off with set point mixing valves. It doesn't affect our sales, any of these guys are a dream to sell against even if your numbers are double (sometimes triple)Theirs. I just feel for the Uninformed homowners they do work for. I know there are guys who are going to read this who completely agree or you are the ones I am speaking of WHICH ONE ARE YOU?

leo g_13

sea change

> and have actually been around for decades.

>

> We

> did a Habitat for Humanity home with them, and

> the owner says it's the most comfortable home

> he's ever been in.

>

> When you think about it,

> the more exposure the human body "sees" from the

> radiant source, the more warmth it will

> experience. You have to think of radiant as being

> a light source, like a big flash light, and the

> bigger the shadow your body casts, the more

> energy it intercepts.

>

> From the ceiling or the

> floor, the shadow cast is quite a small profile.

> From the side, the shadow cast is very

> substantial, especially in my case:-)

>

> Radiant

> energy is radiant energy, and its effect on

> surrounding mass is to raise the MRT. The MRT

> doesn't care where the radiant energy comes from.

> The human body absolutely doesn't care where the

> MRT comes from, so long as it mimicks it's own

> surface temperature.

>

> I think radiant floors

> are over rated. There ARE less expensive

> alternatives available that will still provide

> radiant comfort. I'm with you Kal.

>

> ME

>

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