Thinking staple up or suspended, were you?

hr

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Mark Eatherton1

BRAVO!!!

Well said John. We can only hope that the rest of the industry is reading and heeding your well thought out advice.

I remember saying something to this affect about one of my competitors a long time ago. I now hear rumors that he's being sued by a dissatisfied homeowner who also happens to be a lawyer...

When will they ever learn.

ME

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Floyd_5

Preach it brother,..... John!!!!

Now if you could just get the RPA to acknowledge what many here already know and preach it, also......

Great work, as always!!!!

Floyd

heatboy

Once again............

my eletist views are vindicated ;-)

hb

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ScottMP

Love it.

" Thermal constipation " is great. I'll use that line.

I can't belive ME did'nt come up with that line, or did John steal it from him

Scott

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Mark Eatherton1

Not mine...

That is a SIGGY original classic.

ME

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Kevin_in_Denver

Emergency solution for underperforming staple-up

From heat transfer class, I recall that the slightest airflow can increase heat output from horizontal pipes tremendously.

What if you cut two holes in the floor of one of these thermally constipated rooms and installed a quiet 200 CFM blower? The holes would be kitty corner from each other, and hopefully the piping and electrical holes in the joists aren't sealed up. If you can get even half a foot per second breeze going, the heat output will be roughly 4 times greater than natural convection.

Wayco Wayne_2

I must agree

This Winter showed everyone what works and what doesn't. I believe I will put in plates from now on or nothing at all. WW

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cruizer

Never in my life

have I designed a staple up without plates. At my company we do not condone it, and we do not do it. When some calls and wants a staple up with out plates, I explain to them that benefits of using plates, and try to convince them to use plates. If they still refuse, I kindly tell them that it is against our policy to do this style application, and we will not do it. I hate to lose business, but we have a reputation at stake.

Floyd_5

A wise man indeed........

wish more thought like you.

You do it my way or .....

siggy

plateless radiant

Thanks for your support guys.

I feel the "unrestrained" use of plateless staple-up has reached a level where it constitutes a real threat to the future of the industry.

As some of you have pointed out, there's a time to "just say no," explain why you won't compromise your work, and move on to situations where you can practise as a professional.

Diligence at doing right will prevail in the long run. The cream will rise to the top.

Siggy

Floyd_5

Now, the manufacturers......

If we could somehow just get them to stop promoting the installation of staple......
However there goal #1 is to SELL tubing.....
and, yes I will admit that staple up can have it's place in very moderate climates or for floor warming....
however that has not been stressed enough!!!!
To many are out there trying to do things the easy way and screwing with radiants good name.

I challenged the folks at the Wirsbo Mini Camp about their promption of "hot air" radiant systems, which in my mind is what a staple up essentially is. If I wanted to install HA then I would do so, and not try to pass it off as a "radiant" system.

There is a fine line between selling product, and doing what's best for the industry in the long run.... just hope that too many people aren't out there trying to maximize their short terms gains in spite of the long term consequences.

Just a couple of pennys worth of thought...

Floyd

Unknown

There is a lot of talk in here about always using plates.

I have worked on probably about 400 projects at this point. I think maybe two had no plates in an underfloor installation. Maybe as high as four. Point is, I'm a big plate advocate.

However, discounting plateless suspended tube entirely is fairly silly. It can and does work in many situations, and it is cheaper. IF YOU DO THE MATH. Pointing at a plateless system and saying "that'll work!" or "That'll never work!" without doing the math is morally equal in my book.

If you are not designing with due diligence, then perhaps you should stay away from plateless altogether unless you're in georgia or something. But if you are designing with due diligence... do what makes sense, and do what will work!

_______________________________


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Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

hr

Rob, all that

really needs to happen is to get the industry together and post some agreed upon output criteria for various tube methods. That seems to be the missing link.

I've seen claims from 15- 45 BTU/sq. ft. output for platelss systems. Quite a spread for homeowners and contractors to comprehend! And I know there are plenty of variables that drive actual output #'s!

Also the needed supply temperatures to provide that output need to be shown. Suspended tube heating systems that need 180° supply to meet design day loads don't leave lots of room for changes in actual construction, floor coverings, owners comfort, below design temperatures (as was the case in Siggys area this winter)etc.

Wading through the quagmire of info out there without ruffling feathers is a tricky proposition. As you well know.

hot rod

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Unknown

Good point hot rod,

I'm comfortable with the numbers and charts I'm using but there are certainly a lot of shady figures out there. Perhaps an RPA-approved chart on output expectations would be useful...

As an aside, I think the "45 BTUs/sqft" claims are coming from companies that are basically doubling their heatloads and output expectations in order to more easily justify a certain high-output heat source they like to use and sell... Just guessing there though based on some jobs I've run heatloads on against their numbers...

_______________________________

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Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

S Ebels

I do a lot of suspended jobs

See......I knew that would get you to read this. (G)

Actually, it's true. We do install a lot of suspended tube, it's just not as the primary heat source. It is only done as floor warming. Period!! Every customer of ours that has tube slung under the floor understands this up front. Suspended tube works great for warming up a floor. I have calculated as much a 15 btu's/sq ft at design water temps with hard surface floors. Not to shabby but it sure isn't going to warm the average home when it's -15* outside.

What I'm saying is that suspended tube has it's place in a hydronic home if it's done right. Our method is to constant circ the under floor loops and control water temp in them with a full reset type control. Usually we are able to use the same water temps that are in the above floor radiation I.E. BB or panel rads. The above floor emitters are riding the same curve and have constant circ but are controlled by thermostats, usually TRV's on radiators. The floor provides a variable, constant on, heat output and the above floor equipment acts as the actual room temp sensing element of the system. Sizing is of course very important in selecting the rads or BB. You have to find a balnce between the heating curve, maximum desired floor temp and the capacity of the rads.

I was just in a customers home this weekend that has this type of system in a two year old house. He stated that they would definitely do it exactly the same a second time. They really enjoy the mildly warmed floors and the constant, even heat in the whole 4,200+ sq ft log home.

I'll say it again for clarity though........ Suspended tube has its place and its place is NOT as the primary heat source for a home!!!

Siggy......... You're preaching to the choir!!

Darin Cook_3

Staple Up Onix

Are you guys talking about pex staple up? I have been to the Wirsbo school and while John Barba made perfect sense about why suspended pex would work, I have never used that method. I believe a fella by the name of Tom Testmaier? came up with it. We do however alot of Watts Radiant staple up. The Watts/Heatway heatloss software is excellent and we have never had a problem heating anything. But the key is to do a heatloss and proper system design. The room by room nanograph you can pull up as you input info, shows you what the capacity of the floor is and where you are on that. There are occasions where you may have to go with supplemental heat for a variety of reasons. The vast majority of time we have not had to use supplemental heat. We are in the Capital District region of New York State and the lowest temp this winter was in the -20' range and there were no complaints. But we also work hand in hand with the insulator and find out what he is doing with the shell of the house. Doing a system with extruded aluminum plates and pex is a great way to do a radiant system, but wow, what a increase in the investment for the home owner. Every time we give the option between the two Onix is chosen. If you look at the numbers for floor output Onix is very close to a plated pex sytem. The original pex staple up sytems were a massive noise bank of expansion noises and I was told that was another reason why they came out with plates.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Hey Steve

Would you (or one of your customers) be willing to measure the floor surface temperatures of the areas tempered with bare tube staple-up?

Preferably two spaces (in same structure of course) with radically different heat losses per square foot. Would be nice if taken in moderate weather where the supplemental heat is nearly or completely off; cold weather where the supplemental is kicking in; and frigid weather where the supplemental is cranking.

Tube layout should be identical in both spaces and [hopefully] flow and pressure drop will be extremely similar as well. The spaces don't have to be identical in size as long as it can be reasonably assumed that both have access to the same number of BTUs per square foot of panel.

hr

Yes, no,maybe, never

It is quite possible to build a foam block or straw bale structure with little glasss or loss and have a load 15 or lower BTU/ sq. ft. Seems more and more well built homes are falling in the 20 BTU range, in my area. In this case, I feel even Siggy agrees their are some doable staple or suspended jobs.

Still the potential for someone to cover a wood floor with carpet or area rugs is common. Even slabs get covered down the road. Rarely do I see folks remove new carpet! In fact carpet is often added to hide damaged or worn surfaces, especially when a home goes on the market. Can't beat the price per square foot to cover a room in carpet when a home is put on the market, to freshen up the look.

Futhermore the least expensive pad, which happens to be the least friendly radiantly, is often chosen. It would be wise for a contractor installing radiant to consider these issues when doing a design. Leave some room for error or change.

hot rod

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DaveGateway

suspended tube works fine for me!

As a homeowner, energy costs are really important to me!
Here's what I did, I took the $5,000.00 (2,000ft2) that I saved by not using heat transfer plates and put it into the insulation package. Getting R65 ceilings & R35 walls.
So at outdoor design temp of -20*, water supply temp of 130*, & a delta-T of 15*, I only need 10btuh/ft2 for the main level & 13btuh/ft2 for the upstairs 2 br & bath.
The boiler is condensing, the TJI's aren't cooking, & it works just fine for me! Saving me energy costs every month. I think that this approach is not very popular with you guys who try to make a living by installing this stuff, as in reduces your profit on the installation, but I think it saves me a bunch of $$$ PS you may have noticed, I like to stir the pot. BP

Mark Eatherton1

Impractial recommendations Bill...

You obviously had the opportunity to crank down your load factors pretty substantially. As a heating contractor, we don't have that opportunity in most cases.

As for being expensive, that's not my goal. My goal is to design and install as efficient as system as I can. When I come across loads in the area of 20 to 30 btu/sq ft/hr, I use plates because it also makes a difference in operating costs.

Even if I had a load of less than 10 btu/sq ft per hour I'd still recommend plates because it keeps the operating temperatures MUCH lower than naked tube hanging out in a joist bay... Prove me wrong on that point and I'll quit using plates:-)

You keep on a stirrin'. Just make sure your stirrin' in the right direction.

ME

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Unknown

Value Engineering

At 10 BTUs/sq ft whatever you save in efficiency isn't going to do much for your client's bottom line. You're already down to 110-120 deg SWT for suspended tube at that output (assuming wood floors) and your heat loss is already low, coaxing a few more percent out of it isn't going to save them enough to justify extruded plates, really. Not even really enough to justify lightweight plates at that range. What are you looking at there, a 15-20 year payback period? Floors are safe, temps are low, I wouldn't spend the extra money, personally. If my client wants to, I'll sell him the plates with a smile and give him a pat on the back, but I'm not going to recommend it; that's just overkill.

Of course, if fuel prices skyrocket.. and maybe they will in the next few years... maybe that will change. But it's hard to justify thousands of dollars now for something that may or may not happen in the next 5, 10, or 20 years.

_______________________________

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Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

Paul Pollets

As are mine!!

I won't say ..."I told you so!!"

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DaveGateway

Impractial recommendations ?

Mark, Hello
Extra insulation works for me, as I maby save 1/2 on my LP bills!
I certainly agree with you, that you can run lower temps. with good quality (quiet) heat transfer plates & with a condensing boiler. And yes, that will lower the heating bills. But would it ever catch up with savings with extra insulation?
BTW, do you remember my 1st post regarding running 180* water into a slab? The reason I asked that stupid question was that a neighbor of mine did it in his own house 3yrs ago. He's been a plumber in the Vail area for 16yrs!
I consider myself a greenhorn "student of the wall" and I really appreciate all the info here. Thanks to all BP

Jed_2

concrete slab acceleration

Hello, John

I would like to be able to predict a slab recovery from setback over time, given assumed conditions. I know it has to do with the conductance of concrete, volume of slab, temperature gradients, and delta T's. But I just can't see it on a time line. There probably is a variation of the heat rate formula to use for this purpose. Can you help me with this? For example: 20x40x4" slab, 150lbs/cu.ft. Target air temp 68 deg. setback temp 60deg. slab surface at design 79deg. 70deg. at 60deg air.How long will it take to recover to 68deg air temp. and 79deg. surface temp? These are just random numbers for example. Surface covering R-values variable.

It's probably all in your book, but I just can't seem to come up with the right equation.

Regards,

Jed(John DeGrass)

tombig

Emitters

When a house goes for four days below design temp and your only emitter is 1200sf of Brazilian cherry, not only does staple up not comply with the load, plated or poured systems may not keep up either.

With standing iron, forced air, baseboard, a turn of the stat for HO's cost some but overcame the heat loss. Second stage panels or baseboard will allow the owner to 'crank it up' if they so desire while enjoying the comfort and efficiency of their floor heat most of the time.
As usual, SE nails it with some common sense design logic.

Floyd_5

Maybe??????

Of course, if fuel prices skyrocket.. and maybe they will in the next few years... maybe that will change. But it's hard to justify thousands of dollars now for something that may or may not happen in the next 5, 10, or 20 years.

I don't think there is any question about the "maybe" in that statement...... it is a given.... and if your NOT designing for the BEST possible eff.'s then YOU are doing your customers a major disservice!!!!!!

Just my .02

Floyd

Tim Doran_2

Thanks Siggy!

I have read and learned from your articles for some time now and I appreciate all that you share. I do have to say that this one is a bit over the top. Condeming all suspended applications because some installers choose to ignore the rules is like condeming cars because there are drunk drivers. Suspended applications do work if the rules are followed and if the project allows.

Guys, don't forget that guys like Siggy and Dan are writers and they provide us with great stuff but they also need to fuel the machine to keep their writing alive. Nothing wrong with that it is just how it works. Heck, many of you even pay Dan for the right to help him generate material. Once again there is nothing wrong with this. In fact my hat is off to Dan. I think that he is one of the marketing greats of all time and his idea's have helped me make plenty of money as well. Thanks!

To those who choose to blame the manufacturers you are missing something important. It's called money. The manufacturers sell plates and plates cost more than clips or staples therefore if plates were the only way to go they would make more money. Complaining that they are in it to sell pipe or to make money is ridiculous. Of-course they are in it to sell products, that's what puts food on the table for them just like the rest of us. Reality check, we all sell stuff and I would guess that you would all rather sell more than less and make more than less. The one thing that I am certain of when it comes to money is that I like more better than less.

I have heard John Barba discuss this at the hct and he says that it is one of many options and he discusses the appropriate applications and the do's and don'ts! He never said that it was "the" way to do radiant while I was out there. If guys refuse to listen or to get the training the blame lies only with them. So Floyd, what was John's reply to your "challenge"?

I have also been to heatway, roth, and rehau classes and all of them follow the same path. It is just one way to do radiant. They all talk about what is right and wrong and what to do and not to do. Maybe we need the "radiant police".

I found it interesting that all of the systems in Siggy's article had tubing applied wrong, lacked insulation, or had near boiler piping issues. So why is suspended tube bad? No where in his writing did it say that he went to a suspended system that was installed by the book and it did not work. I can assure you all that there are embeded systems, quik trak/climate panel systems, extruded plate systems and the like out there that do not work because someone did not go by the book. Should we stop using those applications as well?

Last but not least. I can not help but wonder what impact all of this has on your individual businesses. Where do you get the time to post all of this stuff and to ponder all of these topics? How does this help you make more money? I am far to busy to be reading the wall in the middle of the day. Maybe thats because I will do suspended pipe applications and you guys won't? What other income producing situations do you walk away from due to this "elite" mentality? I do suspended pipe, I do a heat loss and system design every time, I use plates or quik trak where needed and my systems work and my clients are happy. And yes, I live in a cold climate. -20/-30 for a few days most years.

I feel that all of this negitive press and all of these negitive articles do more harm to the industry than a few bad installations, particularly when the problems can be attributes to the installer and are not inherent to the products or system when properly installed. Hell, we survived poly B and the entran train wreck. Joist heating ain't no big threat.

That reminds me. Where are all of the rubber hose guys that think rubber will perform as well as plates. They should be concerned with this article as well as they have no plate option, they just get to keep throwing expensive tubing at it by decreasing spacing. Alass, maybe all of this individualism and confusion is good for the industry and I just can't see it. I guess that it is possible that all of the homeowners that read these posts could somehow feel better about radiant heating after seeing this article and all of these posts. I wonder how many of them are siting home wondering if the system that they have is any good? I wonder if the homeowners with a Lennox or Trane system have the same worries. Ever wonder why we are in last place? It's time to cut the crap, get on some common ground, and stop writing these scare em straight stories. How about someone writing a few success stories?

Ted

Floyd_5

A smile......

was what I got.....We both knew that neither one was going to get anywhere by butting heads... he made his point, I made mine.
Now, as far as your assertion that we can do more by pulling together than apart... yes, you are right. and IF all contractors out there had the same mentality that you do about staple-up, it would be a non-issue. Problem is, that many do not, and are out there just throwing things in without running the numbers, or they try something and it works for Joe Jeepers, so they do it again for Joe Creepers, without checking to see if the numbers will work. Also, so you install staple-up in a house for Jane Smyth and you make her swaer on a stack of bibles that she will never put carpet down in her rooms because the floor won't heat the house... then she sells the house to Jimmy Jones who is an old throw back from the hippy days and he loves thick shag carpet...... now what you gonna do when he comes for you??????
Hopefully the HO that come here will read and stick around long enough to understand... and know enough about human nature to realize that the bad stuff is gonna get the most time.....
That being said, I also think that the few bad insatlls that are out there will have a much more detrimental effect on the industry than the many great jobs, thus the focus is more on them.
Hey we all look at things differently... my wife's cup is usually half empty... mine half full... it's all in how we percieve things, and it's great that we are all different.
This place would be a real bore if we all agreed all the time!!!!

Floyd

Darin Cook_3

The Facts Only Please

If you do a proper heat loss and design for your area, your home will heat. Gain a working relationship with a insulation contractor and take control of your design parameters. Both you and the homeowner have every thing to gain by this. If you obey the laws of physics it will all fall into line, promise. You can take that to the bank.

GMcD

Concrete slabs

First, why would anyone want to set back the temperature of a radiant slab? Second, the rule of thumb I generally use, based on some computer modelling simulations, is about 1.5 hours per degree per inch of concrete as a response time. Normally I am working with large concrete core conditioning systems (radiant slab ceiling cooling/heating systems), but the rule of thumb generally works even with thin radiant floor heating slabs used in residential applications. Setting back and re-charging a slab is something that consumes a lot of time, or a lot of energy, or both. It takes much less energy to keep a slab trickle charged at a constant temperature, than it does to let it get off setpoint and then bring it back again. It's a time versus energy thing- you can inject lots of big energy in a short period to bring the slab back to temperature quicker, or you can input a small amount of energy over a longer time.

siggy

It's great to see some good discussion on the "plateless" issue.

I feel I should clarify a couple of points from the article:

First, there is a difference between "suspended tube" systems and direct staple-up. The latter refers to situations where the tube is stapled directly to something (hopefully the underside of the subfloor rather than the side of the joist). Suspended tube on the other hand is supported some distance away from the underside of the subfloor to allow better natural convection currents to develop.

Secondly, I do feel there are possible applications for direct staple-up, and the article does state this (for loads of 15 Btu/hr/sq ft) or less).

This real concern I have is that too many people apparently don't recognize the limitations of direct staple-up and use it in situations with much higher loads.

Such indiscriminate use of plateless staple up is why I feel those new to the field should stay away from it.

Siggy

Mark Hunt

Then why chance it?


You all just made a perfect argument for a forced air system.

If I design and build a forced air system right, then why should anyone ever consider anything else?

Btu's are Btu's right? If the heat loss is 50k per hour on design day and I install a system that matches that, what's the difference? "Well you get warm toes."..........
Well they won't get warm toes until it's design day then.

I have MANY staple up systems out there with NO plates. I have NEVER, repeat, NEVER had a case like Siggy mentioned. Not once.

I did my math, I did the calcs, they ALWAYS WORK!

When I need to, I use supplemental heat. I can count on one hand the number of times that had to happen.

I used -10 for my home and the numbers said no problem. At -20, I could not get my home above 66 degrees. My math was correct, and so was the system.

Sorry John, your experience does not reflect mine.

Plates or no plates won't matter if the homework was not done correctly.

Here's a question for all of you. Are baseboard systems bad? Would you refuse to install one?

If you answered no, tell me why 180 degrees is OK for baseboard, but 150 is bad for a radiant system.

That makes no sense.

Again, btu's are btu's. the house will use as many as it needs. Your system does not influence btu demand, it FILLS the btu demand.

Whether you like it or not, it's the insulator that determines how big your system should be.

Of course, maybe I was just lucky.

If you believe that, I have a nice bridge in New York that you might want to buy. Real cheap too.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Good


Now go read Siggy's post below.



Mark H

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Floyd_5

Okay, Mark....

knowing what I now know to be true... I no longer design baseboard around 180 temps. I thnik that that also should become a thing of the past... will it??? No way!!!! It's been good 'nuff for the last 100 years and why the well should I change now???
Gas is pushin 2 bucks/gal., fuel oil, NG, and LP are not far behind.... wait'll next winter... the guy that make make the heat system sing for the least smackeroo's will be King!!!!

Mark Hunt

Hiya' Floyd!


So why do you design a baseboard system around lower water temps?

Do you down size the boiler because you lowered the temps?

Does the boiler use less btu's because you used a lower water temp?

Look, my point is this. I do not appreciate having the systems I design and install called junk. Got it?!?!?!?

I was not aware that Mr. Siggy ran a service company and had been inundated with countless service calls for insufficient radiant systems. Poor guy.

I have NEVER NEVER NEVER had complaint one regarding the systems I designed and installed. I will not be shelved as a "lower class" radiant installer because I don't use plates.

If a home needs 50k, 80k, 100k, of heat, you need to install a boiler that will deliver that amount, regardless of what water temp you run. Got it? 100 feet of baseboard @ 180 or 240 feet of baseboard @ 120. The boiler is still the same size. The heat loss is the same.

One of my favorite line from "the Outlaw Jose Wales".....

"Don't p@## down my back and tell me it's rainin'"




Mark H

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Floyd_5

I'm really tempted....

to REALLY get your goat tonight!!!!!
Your primed and ready......

Nah.... not tonight... I'm too tired.....had a LONGGGGGGG day fixin' other contractor's screw-ups......

Can't anybody braze an A/C coil anymore????? Isn't it illegal to charge a system that you KNOW leaks??????

Tired minds what to know????

Unknown

The BEST possible efficiency?

You could design a house you can heat with your radiant heat from your body. Got the cash to do it? Want to live in a ten by ten thermos bottle?

Does every home need a $10k condensing boiler to eke out a few percent efficiency on a 25kBTU design day heatloss?

Your statement is very shortsighted, and very simplistic. Following your lead every home should have enough solar hot water panels on them to supply all their heating needs with a 500 gallon storage tank in the basement and slab floors everywhere. Doesn't get more efficient than FREE right and fuel prices are due to skyrocket any day!

My job is not to scare my clients with doomsday prophecies. I let them know the maybes, I push for efficiency, but their budget is their business and my business is getting them the BEST system they can get for their money. Would you prefer they went with a less efficient FHA system instead of a suspended tube radiant on a low loss building on 1-2% of my projects?

I share your ideals man, but I'm living here in the real world. In this world we NEVER do systems that are as efficient as they could be, it's ALWAYS a balancing act, and it's just a question of how far you can go on the budget and what the best returns are. BuffaloBill made a very, very good point above; spend $5k on plates or spend $5k on insulation? You're saying he should spend $10k. Nice. I guess only millionaires should build houses now.

Fact is, better windows and better insulation gives the best return (to a point) for your dollar. What we do with the heating system SHOULD be a secondary concern to that if overall efficiency is the goal.

Finally, I guarantee you my systems are just as if not more efficient than any other in their price range, and I greatly resent your comment that I am doing anything more than helping my clients get the best possible system they can afford. We use reset, we push for efficient and clean heat sources, we minimize water temperatures as much as we can (and on 98% of the projects, we succeed). The entire point is you cannot make broad generalizations like the one you just made. That's sloganeering. I'm interested in practical solutions, not sound bites, and I'm not going to walk on a system I know will work and will be reasonably efficient for the space or try to use scare tactics to increase my bottom line. I call that integrity and good design practice.

_______________________________

Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC

Robert Brown, Co-Owner, RPA certified Radiant Designer

207.899.2328
NRT@maine.rr.com

John Abbott

John....

I certainly agree that improperly designed and or installed suspended or staple up should not be used.I think however that we should recognize the fact that properly designed and installed systems do work.I would love to install nothing but plates however with the realities of the marketplace in my area I would be pricing more than half my customers out of radiant.
I have been installing radiant for 25 years and have done about every installation method available.All of my systems work including the stapleup ,but they were properly designed and installed.I use wirsbo tubing and their software for heatloss and tube spacing. I use -20 as the outdoor design and factor in a 25 mph wind. If the design calls for supplemental heat in a area we install plates in that area only.We make certain that the under floor insulation is properly installed.almost all of our Installs are outdoor reset injection systems with multiple appropriate temperatures sometimes six or eight temps if needed due to floor coverings and installation methods.
We had a brutal cold winter here in NH but not one call of insufficent heat.If not for our attention to detail I am sure we would have had many.I have many suspended systems suppling more than 15 BTU per foot but not being an engineer I won't argue that point with you.I would think that education of installers and standardized output figures would serve the industry better than condemming a method because it is being misapllied.
If " The cream rises to the top"because they only install plates and I don't does that make me a bottom feeder?
We do only high quality systems that work well and our customers love.I fail to see anything wrong with that.
I mean no disrespect to you or anyone who disagrees with my methods and I appreciate the great things you have done for our industry keep up the good work!

John

Mark Eatherton1

\"attention to details\"...

THAT my friends is the key. What Siggy is condemning is NOT the application, so much as the MIS-application. In his article, he states that there is a time and a place for it. It MUST be calculated.

Honestly, how many of your competitors actually do a heat loss/gain calculation?

Heck, for that fact, how many people HERE actually do a heat loss/gain calculation for EVERY job they do?

Attention to details is CRITICAL, and as Hot Rod has pointed out, if you are already running on the naked edge, and the lady of the house starts dropping significant R value on top of your radiant floor, are YOU going to go tell her the she's going to have to roll up her expensive woven Indian rugs and put them in the attic of the garage? Or are you going to cover it with verbiage in your contractual proposal...

"Homeowner shall not install finished floor goods with an overall R value of greater than 1"...

Let's not get nasty with each other here. We are all professionals. If you want to suffer the potential consequences of a system that can't cut it because of future finish floor changes, then thats your business. I'd prefer to have a little wiggle room, because these things really do happen.

ME

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Jed_2

Geoff

I actually posted in error. It was supposed to be an e-mail, but alas. Any way, since it's out there, I want to be able to explain to some of my customers just those points, and show through calculations, the comparisons. But, I can think of non-critical building usage(no risk of plumbing freeze up, where a controlled setback for extended periods of time are appropriate. As long as the Client understands how his system will work. 1.5h/°F/in. is usefull, Thanks. But I just know it can be calculated on an iterative basis. I just can't seet it.

Oh, by the way. Sorry for cutting into a different topic thread. It was my error.

Regards,
Jed