Munchkin 80M Blower failure

Steve Eayrs

Kindergarden class?

Troy if this was a kindergarden class I would feel obligated to repeat my valid complaints. Its not so I won't. Please re-read my posts, and you will see plenty of valid honest questions. And as the other post stated Veissman blowers are not the same. Have you looked close at both these boilers? I have.

I have had some converations since this post, but as of yet no real answers, but I do believe there are some who are honestly trying to "fix it". I will be more than happy to keep the wall informed as to what happens, or if nothing happens. I would rather like to tell you that Munchkin is standing behind their product and concerned about these blower failures, but as of yet I can't.


Have you noticed one post yet from munchkin directly, explaining their take on the problems? No offence, I don't know who you are. But as far as I know you could be more interested in the drop of your future munchkin sales, than helping solve this problem. I would advise you quit trying to protect munchkin and let them speak for themselves.

I will also keep the wall informed if I find the real culpret is the local supplier. They could be the reason for no repair parts anywhere close when needed, but they will never be the reason for the failures we have seen, and it seems that one reason there have been no parts around here, is directly related to the amount of blower failures.


Steve

Steve

Mark Hunt

Mr. Doperalski

I am very happy to hear that your situation has been addressed by the fine folks at HTP.

Not very many companies would take such a personal interest.

I notice that your company is in the same area as Ted Schmelling.

Do you know who he is?

I look forward to hearing how this all works out for you.

http://matrixaudiodesigns.com/novamarketing.html

Mark H

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ScottMP

Michael

Thanks for posting that. HTP s responce shows the true nature of the company. Had they been contacted sooner by your contractor this would not have gone as far as it has.

Please let us know how this turns out.

Scott

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Constantin

There could be several innocuous reasons

Here is a list of possibilities thrown out at random - it is pure speculation and I have no and I never had any affiliation with HTP. Thus, I don't speak for them. My little list simply reflects my experience developing products for other people, nothing more. It strikes me that HTP is not the largest of companies. As such, their resources are strictly limited.

• If HTP treats all problems in a FIFO manner by category (low, medium, critical), perhaps your trouble ticket hasn't made it to the front of the stack yet. Unlike you, they may not consider a blower failure indicative of a widespread problem because unlike you they have not seen high blower failure rates crimp the resources set aside for warranty work. Widespread blower failures outside of the warranty period fall on a different department and do not cost the company money. Hence, that kind of problem (even if the company will address it) tends to receive a lower priority.
• It is entirely possible that someone else did the development for them to develop the Munchkin and they now only have a skeleton crew to maintain the product. Naturally, the maintainers usually know less than the developers, particularly when it comes to highly engineered products. Any questions at that point have to be submitted to the original guys in the hope that they'll not only remember what is critical (they might be on the 20th project beyond HTP by now) but that they have the time and inclination to do so as well.
• BTW guys, this is the way that more and more development projects are going. Many companies can no longer afford having design engineers on board unless they're busy 100% of the time. In newer, smaller companies, this is hard to achieve. Hence, they hire consultants to do the work for them and then bring in a small crew to support the product and make incremental (as opposed to fundamental) changes.
• HTP may be working on the problem but may not identified the root cause yet. Your detective work is a step in the right direction. The right response of HTP to you should have been "Thank you, we're looking into it, if we find something, we'll give you a call". From your posts it's not clear what their response was... just that you weren't happy with it. However, a "fix" (if indeed there is a problem) may take some time to get into the field. As stated above, their engineering resources could be stretched thin and estimating failure rates in accelerated conditions (i.e. hotter ones) is a tricky art indeed.

This is but a small list from someone who used to develop products for other people. It could be longer but I have to go to work. It's not to excuse HTP, it simply reflects the reality of a small company with an innovative product selling at about 1/2 the price point of the next-higher-up appliance. They simply won't be producing the vast profits that a company like Viessmann can plow right back into engineering and R&D.

I'll be interested to find out what the upshot is.

Constantin

Private Label Parts, so what?

Viessmann gets other companies to make private label components for them. Big deal. It simply means that a consumer and/or contractor is locked into Viessmann's supply chain going forward. That can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on where Viessmann is going, its pricing policies, etc.

Take a look at a GE waterheater in Home Despot the next time you're there. GE doesn't make waterheaters. Rheem does it under the GE name just for HD. I'm sure there are some minute differences in the parts... besides the stickers, that is.

In the home appliance industry, different brands are but features away. My Energystar-rated fridge says Whirlpool on the outside but was made by Amana (like most bottom-freezer units are in the US). The difference between the regular Amana and the "Whirlpool"? The door and interior shelf options.

So yes, Viessmann may get parts made for them under a private-label contract. More power to them. However, a private-label part in itself does not point to higher quality. Quality improvements are only achieved if Viessmann actually specifies them. They may or they may not, I simply do not know. Do you?

Oh, and BTW, the next time you get involved discussing someone else's brand, it probably would be a good thing to identify yourself as a Viessmann representative. Proper disclosure and all that. I'm sure that's the Viessmann way also and if HTP can do it (Chuck Shaw, et. al), so can you. That way, people can attach the proper grain of salt to your observations.

Troy_3

Steve

I'm just a lowly radiant contractor that was very offended by a couple of guys attacking HTP whom I count as friends. My experience has been so different that I can't help wonder why? Did you ask for help? I've always been helped from the rep. to the tech dept. to the owner! Did the complaining parties cause their own problems? I have had a few problems and they do cost money. I don't like problems but I recognize when I can count on a company and I will stand up for those who stand up for me. Simple! If you have a problem why don't you call them? If you tell me they won't respond to you then I have to question why? I use many different products and I chose to use HTP. We don't install low end jobs as someone has illuded. Price is not my #1 ctiteria. Value and reliability is. The fact that I am not stuck on a boiler line speaks to my objectivity. I do like Munchkin and will not listen to anyone say I'm just too cheap to always use Viessmann. I've experienced both and think both are great products and great companies. These are the choices I have made. Now go deal with your problem with the people that can help you. Grandstanding in a public forum won't solve your problem. Any good manufacturer isn't going to spar with you on a public forum. Deal direct with them.

Steve Eayrs

Evidently we live in different world and.........

you assume tooooo much.
We have called. We have asked for help. We did not cause the problems. Your little simple replys, assuming that the real problem has to be with us, and couldn't be with them, is an insult. I would not use this forum for the complaint if I had resolved the issue otherwise. This was not the first line of defence, but a last resort. Your responces imply that I'm just some un-informed idiot who could not of possibly done the obvious things you mentioned.


I will let the wall know what happens. As of this morning I guess the supply house is currently hashing it out with the factory rep., to see if (2) of the blower motors will be warrantied or not. Of course the end users will have to pay for the labor (at a min.)to replace them regardless, since I did not supply either of these boilers.


Steve

Steve Eayrs

I want to add..........

I want everyone to know that Chuck Shaw did get ahold of me, back a week of two ago, and that was greatly appreciated. I am not out to bash a product. I just want answers, and promise to let the wall know when and if I get any results. Its great that Chuck also got back to the homeowner, (Michael?), but I am sure you will be hearing back from him also, if nothing is actually resolved.

If this company is a good as some of you say, them I will just wait and share the good news with you when it happens. It may be found the real problem has more to do with a rep. who doesn't care enough.

Thanks to the wall for the format to bring these things up. I'm not so sure anything would be being considered for warranty, without this public format.


Steve

Chuck Shaw_2

Steve,

Please check your e-mails, or give me a call on the phone.

Thanks,

Chuck Shaw
Technical Support Department
Heat Transfer Products
1-800-323-9651 ext 942

Michael D. (Homeowner)

HTP Is Helping Me With My Munchkin

I just wanted to report that since yesterday I have exchanged 4 or 5 emails with Mr. Guy Woollard at HTP and he has been most helpful. He is sending me, at no charge, a new control board that he is personally programming to their latest specifications, and he has suggested that I have my unit Combustion Tested for proper CO levels out of the exhaust as it might be running too "rich".

As a homeowner I am quite impressed at this involvement by the vendor and it makes me wish I had initiated contact with them myself and earlier.

Constantin

Great to hear and cheers for HTP

I hope this is the end of your saga. May you Munchkin behave itself forevermore. Cheers!

DanHolohan

In Chuck

We Trust. ;-)

Steve Eayrs

thanks Chuck

I believe your input could have been the deciding factor. I was just told that they are going to warranty the (2) blower motors in question. This does not cover the cost of things, (labor, etc), but it will be a relief to the owners, on part of their bill.


And thanks to this format that allows a remote contractor like myself to be a sqeaky wheel. Without it I would most likely still be debating this with the supplier, who evidently thought it was too much hassle, or did not have the time to follow through for a warranty.


If you ever run across the reason these blowers have been going out, I am sure you will let us all know. I sure know who I can contact for any future problems.


thanks again, Steve

hydronicsmike

Chuck's the Man!

He has always been there for me when I needed help.

All I wonder, is why this whole issue had to be dragged on like this in a public forum, rather than giving HTP a chance to do something about this and help you. Always talk to the source.

Honestly, sometimes I see posts on here where a product is slammed and then when checked with the manufacturer, he has never heard of the person doing the slamming. Lets be fair.

JMHO - Mike

DanHolohan

Amen

to that. How much better it is for the hydronics industry when these things can be worked out in private.

Anyone interested in taking that road? All you have to do is email me and I'll put you together with the right party.

Larry Ticknor

I for one tried to work this out in private

I called HTP technical services. I was told to replace the blower. That was all there was.

I checked The Wall to find out if there had been any other reported blower failures with the Munchkin, and there had.

I called technical service again, and left my name and number twice (and yes, one of those was Chuck Shaw's number). I left two messages and got no returned calls. I also called the warranty department and left my name. I got no returned calls. I called three other times and got no answer but didn't bother to leave my name and number again.

So I started asking questions on The Wall. I tried the private route and nothing happened. I was ignored. Since I started this thread, I think you can safely say HTP was given ample opportunity to work this out in private and ignored that opportunity. The implication that those posting a problem on The Wall are simply too lazy to work with the company is insulting.

I talked to Chuck and he offerred to have someone look at the defective part if I would send it in. There was no offer to check on what the part was or if it was critical. I had to do that myself (see my 5/24 post).

Now it appears HTP is trying to silence the squeeky wheels. Is that how quality companies work? Quality is an attitude, a way of doing business, and trying to improve realiability. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe HTP has changed their attitude -- if so, lets hear from HTP.

Larry Ticknor

R. Kalia

don't agree

> How much better it is for the hydronics

> industry when these things can be worked out in

> private.


People need to know when problems with a product amount to a trend rather than just exceptions. It is not 'better for the hydronics industry' if public discussion is discouraged by the very person who runs the leading discussion forum!

As an HO considering the Munchkin, this thread is very interesting and will certainly affect my decision. That kind of consumer reaction is not going to hurt the hydronics industry---few people will switch to forced air!---but it will send consumers towards more solid products. And this in turn will push manufacturers such as HTP towards making more solid products. Which is good for the industry.

Larry Ticknor

Thanks Constantin

for that input from a development perspective. I hadn't considered that. My perspective is rooted in reliability.

I'm not sure how many reported failures should trigger increased observations. I believe all failures should be documented to some degree, so by the time they get to the tenth (for example) blower failure in 2 year old munchkins they can quickly scan the data to see if the failure is the same and if there are other commonalities. Gathering that data is not time intensive and shows a concern by the company.

And yes, maybe HTP should thank me for getting them some information they didn't have.

Thanks again for your input and insights.

Larry

DanHolohan

My suggestion

was that a contractor with a problem email ME. I may not have been clear enough on that, Larry. Sorry.

DanHolohan

The end of the bell curve

I spent most of Monday at HTP, watching products being built, talking to the workers on the floor and the staff in the office and R&D. I saw a lot of product going out the door and a lot of blower motors on 365/24/7 torture tests.

Chuck, I don't have a real job. I travel around the country, talking to contractors and wholesalers and engineers. When I'm not doing that, I sit at home and read this site all day long. Not much of a life, I know, but it is what it is. ;-)

I've met a lot of people in my life, and I think the HTP people are sincere. I also think their product problem with the OEM blower motor is quickly getting resolved. Every company has problems from time to time; it's how they react that I watch.

As a homeowner, I believe you're reading the end of the bell curve here. There are also contractors posting in this thread who find the product practically flawless. That's the other end of the bell curve. I'm of an age where I look for the reality somewhere between those two points. What I saw on Monday at HTP was very healthy, which is why I arranged the pre-Wetstock tour of their place.

And, no, they don't advertise with me or send me any money. They did buy me dinner, though. I bought lunch. ;-)

I appreciate the points you're making, though, and I thank you for being a part of the process.

Unknown

I have watched this thread

with interest.

As one who has been in this business for over 40 years I have seen a lot of gas heating equipment come and go. There have been new and creative ventures in technology over the years from Pulse Combustion to Paloma Paks, Glow Cores and the list is a long one. Time has a way of sorting out the good from the bad. I feel I have a little experience when it comes to control systems and component parts for some of these systems. It is very difficult to produce a product that is without defect or some kind of problem. It can be very frustrating when you are an installer or service person trying to explain constant problems with equipment. There is hope however.

That hope is that someone from the factory will solve the problem and it will go away. What is sometimes very scary is that you find yourself knowing more about there product than they do.

Many of the very creative furnaces and boilers I have seen over the past few years had some interesting problems.

1. They were usually pretty well designed and capable of doing what they promised to do - the problem was they were often installed incorrectly and improperly set up.

2. The training from the equipment manufacturer was either non-existent or was a sales pitch and questions about operation and servicing had the pat answer of "I will have to get back to you on that".

3. After a while there was no factory help at all and when it did exist it was very poor. No factory support will kill any product even a good one.

4. Dan spoke about the curve and I agree with him. Even a little more to that is that we all have a learning curve on a lot of the new equipment that is out on the market. Give things some time.

5. Some of that equipment was a real problem from the atart and never did get any better. Most of those are now seen sitting at the curb waiting for the trash man.

I said all of that because I have found with HTP none of the above to be true. My first visit, way back when Munchkin was just reaching the market, with Dave Davis at HTP was a very rewarding experience. My contact with all of them has found them to be very helpful. Jeff Cook, John Sawyer, Brian and Guy to name just a few have been there any time I have needed them. Our friend Chuck Shaw from here on the Wall would never let any of us down. These are good people who want to help. They have the same attitude that Glenn Stanton from Burnaham and also folks from Slant Fin Noel and Jim. My tour of their factory has been very enlighteneing and I find all of the employees on the assembly line to be very knowlegeable.

Defective parts from other sources can be a real problem for a manufacturer. I am sure this will all go away and the Munchkin will be around for a while. It will hopefully take its rightful place along side a lot of good products that are on the market today, time will tell. All of the products that last seem to have good factory representation.

I have a philosophy that I have tried to follow for years concerning equipment. That is do not bad mouth anyones product ever. If you can help people fix there problems better to do that than critize a product.

hydronicsmike

Nicely said!

I respect your views and experience you have.

Constantin

Well, it's not quite that simple

For example, you may have a product that exhibits a problem only under very limited circumstances (let's say it was installed a particular way). Since the manufacturer cannot control the circumstances under which this, the heart of a heating system, is installed, diagnosing a root cause may be very difficult under the best of circumstances. That's where all your training, observation, and experience come into play.

Now place yourself at the other end of the phone line. The person there does not have the system in front of them. They cannot see what you see, hear what you hear, or smell what you smell. What may seem obvious to you may get lost in the communication process. Perhaps as we start getting better at communicating with each other it will become simpler to share pictures, diagrams and whatnot to make remote diagnosis simpler...

Next, as I mentioned elsewhere, it may be very difficult for HTP to track which boiler continues to have trouble and which boiler has been fixed successfully. This is particularly true for out-of-warranty units, as you cannot make serial # requirements for parts, etc. The best you can do is to enclose a postage paid return sticker for the box the replacement came in and hope that the installer will return the broken component. Don't hold your breath though, most will probably opt to use the roundfile instead.

Thus, identifying "lemons" (which I would recall for an autopsy after cataloging the install conditions) may be more difficult than you might think.

After all, are you required to tell HTP what blower is going where (i.e. by keeping track of both serial numbers)? Probably not, and who is to say that the "history" of a unit (i.e. what everyone else before you has done to it) is complete? This is not the aircraft industry where every item and action in an airframe can be tracked.

I sometimes wonder how this industry isn't plagued with more problems. Home Inspections, etc. only go so far in determining if a product has been properly installed (see Mad Dogs latest Builder Special for an egregious example). Worse, manufacturers like HTP have little to no recourse against hack installers... if and when court time comes around hacks typically don't even have enough assets to pay the court fees.

Think about it, almost anyone can order a Munchkin and controlling distribution 100% is next to impossible, even for folks like Lennox that are buying their distributors. Hence, almost anyone can install one.

As a designer or manufacturer, this is what would keep me up at night... so many hacks.. so many opportunities for them to cost me money! So many reasons to make appliances as idiot-proof as possible, as you may end up with a monkey installing it. Yet, the customer and their contractor get steamed once the unit fails... considering how often people move in this country (every 7 years on average), a heating appliance will usually enjoy several owners, and perhaps several maintenance people as well.

Anyway, it should be self-evident that the only thing that keeps the more expensive units out of the hands of hacks is... that hacks are usually too cheap to buy an expensive unit in the first place. Any appliance can be made to fail under the right circumstances, you know that just as well as I do.

DanHolohan

Well said, Tim.

Thanks. The other thing that's really on my mind as I read this thread are the 80 people I met on Monday who work in that factory. They all come to work each day and they work hard. There are two shifts going, and they care about what they're doing. I could tell. These people all have families to support, and they have dreams, just like you and I do. They all really cared about what they were making. They stopped working to show me what they were doing, and they were so enthusiastic about their tasks. You don't see that very often in a factory where people are doing repetitive work. These folks care. So, please, let's keep the human beings who work there in mind as well as we continue this discussion. They're just as important as we are. Thanks for your consideration.

Nron_9

blower test

has anyone checked the temp inside the plastic box where the motor sits to see if the warmer temps are having a affect on the way blowers last , mabe not enough air flow around them moisture and to hot or cold can really have an affect on any motors life span , I have been watching and no one has said what if any testing is done on the site to see I know that the thread is getting long but we now know where the problem is lets find out why , guys test the boilers when your there and lets post results , what are the operarting temps of your system are youcondensing most of the time or running at higher temps and what outside air temp , where is the boiler big city of country life ,is the intake air to the cobustion fan the problem to much bad air there has to be come commen factors lets find them , I love viessmann boilers but every one wants options .

Harold

Yes but

This has been going on for a long time.

No definitive response from the dedicated people really caring about building their product. Caring and wanting a job does not substitute for effective, acceptable, or successful product.

There is a consistent theme to these threads that says be afraid; be very afraid.

Caring builders do not compensate for a faulty design or unacceptable subassemblies. Caring an being right are not necessairly a set.

The only real response I got when inquiring directly about the boiler is "don't buy ours". This is not a simple response but resulted from questioning how it worked.

HTP needs to respond definitively or move into something like aluminum siding or basement water proofing products. Their dedication will apply just as well there as in boilers.

I need to know if I should buy one of these turkeys/magnificant products/regular boiler/coal stoker.

Constantin

It's so easy running a business...

...that's why most of them fail in year one.

However dedicated a business is, they have limited resources, limited staff, and limited time. They may not answer every single question that comes their way. Furthermore, it would not surprise me if some insurance lawyer was not sitting on their tongues, telling them to keep as much to themselves as possible as a means of precluding some over-hyped class-action lawsuit

Remember Dow-Corning? They make a lot of products. The one that put them into bankruptcy protection were silicone breast implants even though no scientific proof has been established between these implants and the diseases that contingency lawyers claim they cause. When definitive studies emerged challenging the lawyers assertions (Mayo clinic, et. al), the tort lawyers turned around and attempted to get all the confidential medical records instead of the aggregated study results.

This country needs EU-style tort reform and it needs it quickly (i.e. loser pays everyones court costs, including lawyers). Until then, it would be foolish to expect a manufacturer to admit to any kinds of defects unless they were absolutely certain what the problem is.

In the meantime, I'd reflect on Dan Holohan's wise words regarding the bell curve. Every heating product is affected by variability in the factory, the install, the operating environment, and the ongoing maintenance. Any of the four could account for breakdowns. Hence the importance of choosing a quality product your installer and maintenance person are familiar with.

I'm willing to believe that the HTP Munchkin is a fine product until proven otherwise. Their sales would not be as stellar, their dedicated installers not as legion otherwise. A small sampling of troublesome units on HeatingHelp.com is not indicative of a industry-wide problem.

In the meantime, I would also consider the hurt that words such as yours inflict on those who build, design, or sell Munchkin units. Flippant remarks such as suggestions to go into the Al-siding business are nothing short of insulting unless the manufacturer deserves such labeling.

Dave Yates (PAH)

I did that once...

and it led to one of the best friends I've ever met!

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Larry Ticknor

If you can't gather all the information you need

do you gather none at all, or do you gather some information that might be useful?

I think you gather some, knowing that it's not all you could use, but which might be helpful in diagnosing reliability problems in the future. You can include a postage paid post card with replacement parts for "warranty purposes" that asks for serial numbers, year of installation, etc. which can be used to track problems. When someone call for technical support you ask for some information like serial numbers and the environment it's operating in.

Dan says they are testing blowers now. So they can learn a lot from that, but blowers that work find in a test environment may fail in a user environment. If one sees failures in the real world that are more common than the test environment, there may be some easy questions to ask which can lead toward describing what differences are important.

Cerainly on can't control installations and there a poor installations by professionals and non-professionals. There are also good installations by both groups. Failures in the second group should be considered.

The job of what data to collect and which data to believe is fraught with problems. That doesn't mean it can't be done to gather enough good information to help improve quality. If every problem is assumed to be due to a "hack" installation, then the quality of the product will suffer.

Larry

Larry Ticknor

I think that's a good idea

and good information to collect. In my May 24th post I tried to give some of that information.

I believe the blower will be at different temperatures depending on how fast it's running and which part of the blower is measured. As you say, higher temperatures will lower the lifespan of the blower.

At maximum speed, at the connection to the heat exchanger, my blower wa 120 degrees F. The max. water temperature was set at 140 degrees F. The boiler is used for winter heating and year round DHW. This measurement was with an outside temperature of about 60 degrees F and air being pulled from the outside (the case was closed up). The boiler is in a small room under the stairs which gets quite warm (80 degrees F) during the winter -- I don't know if that room temperature would matter. The boiler typically runs 1-2 hours in the morning, little during the day usually (solar input is high) and then about 1-2 hours evening/night. Typical runs times are 20-30 minutes in a cycle, and about 70% of the time it's at a low blower speed.

That's what I would think is useful information in thinking about blower failures. Anything else?

Larry