Munchkin 80M Blower failure

Larry Ticknor

A Munchkin 80M from 2001 and installed in April of 2002 had some kind of black plastic shield in the fan part of the blower (a disk about 5" in diameter with a 2" hole in the center) came apart and jammed the blower. It was in 5 pieces. I can't figure out what would have caused it to break up.

I removed the pieces and checked to see if they were all there and put the blower back on and it ran again. It appears to be some kind of guard or ????

Anyone else have this sort of blower failure in the Munchkins?

Anyone know what this would be for and whether it's necessary?

I guess I need to get a new blower. Are the new ones any better. Anyone getting any $ help from HTP to solve these problems? Its hard to have any confidence in a boiler that can't last two years without an expensive service call due to manufacturers defects.

Larry Ticknor

John_56

Munchkin

Last winter we went through major problems with a Pinacle M199. First draft inducer failed, second draft inducer failed, supplier gave me authorization to replace the boiler, due to the damage that resulted from the bad inducer. The new boiler went for about a month when it's draft inducer failed. We cleaned up the boiler and got another new inducer (our cost around $600), this one was different and I was told, "I heard they were having problems with the 199 draft inducers." Now, I have not had any problems with this new one (knock on wood) but we lost a lot of money trying to get this thing right. Needless to say, I am not quoting anymore Munchkins or Pinacles.
Good luck.

Ted_5

Give the Viessmann Vitodens a try

you pay more up front, but will pay for its self after a few years!

Ted

chris h

I am preparing to install several munchkins in two city buildings and am starting to get cold feet due to the recent bad press that some are giving the munchkin, These are my first to install. Any tips? I really appreciate the collective intelligence "The Wall" provides. Thanks,
chris

Floyd_5

You could .....

Check out the WM Ultra.... mod. cond. boiler 5-1 turn down, and have worked flawlessly so far for me.

Floyd

John_56

In all fairness

In all fairness, I do have two other Munchkins installed for a little over two years and have not had any problems except for a bad pressure switch. The thing that really bothers me is that my supplier tech support wasn't much help with the problems I had with this last boiler and secondly the very high cost of that draft inducer. If I have to go back to the customer in say 5 years and replace a draft inducer for say around $1000.00 what are they going to say? I understand that with high efficiency equipment there is more that can go wrong, I just find the servicability is not that easy. I guess time will tell.

Good luck,
John

Ken_8

We have installed

a total now of 3 Munckins.

One was a 199 and two were 80's.

All went through this past winter entirely - without so much as a burp.

I cannot speak too fondly of the boilers.

However, we have also installed 4 W/M Ultras with equally glorious results. No problems whatsoever!

Then too, we have installed 3 and now service a 4th Monitor MZ. Once again, these units have been in for at least two seasons and are absolutely flawless as well!

I would highly recommend all three strongly!

I also savor the fact that I have three awesome boilers in the stable with no reserve about best, better and "bestest."

Talk about great products!

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jwade55_3

I'm a little confused.

"I cannot speak too fondly of the boilers. "

But then

"I would highly recommend all three strongly! "

I like to gather as much feedback as possible.

J

john_42

munchkin gas valve and motor same as weil

all the munchkin motor talk? same unit as weil .same ebm part #s!!!!!!

Ken_8

By saying, \"I cannot speak too...

fondly" means, I cannot run out of praise for the Munchkin, or the W/M Ultra or the MZ and so, I cannot praise them all enough.

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jwade55_3

Sorry Ken.

Guess me english is lacking a bit. I took it as a negative, I say the same thing " I cannot speak fondly enough". Must be my west virginia hertiage. You say tomato I say tamato....

J

Steve Eayrs

Not too fond of Munchkins myself....

Know of only one Munchkin in this area that has not had to have the blower replaced. The last one ran for a whole 20 mins!! None of these boilers I bought myself, but ended up hooking them up for people since we know something about them. Seems people have been buying these up North a ways, and bringing them home, to install some day....and a year goes by. The next step is waiting for 2 months for the 925 upgrade, in order to do the vision one upgrade, and then waiting for another blower. Want to guess how much the combined parts costs, just to make this run smarter the way Munchkin now wants them too?? None of the parts have been covered by a warranty so far, including $400+ blower! But I'm fighting for it. Theres no way this company should be rewarded with a huge profit for the repairs of their mistakes.!! I would venture to guess the new blowers are still going to be a problem, as well as getting them covered by warranty.


If this was a Vitodens the parts would not only be covered, but here 2 months ago! ( I know since I had one littel problem on just one Vitodens and they shipped the part this way the same day!)
You guys back East seem to like them. Why? I begining to see the weight as not a benifit but the main reason Home owners throw them into the back of their Subaru. Don't find them doing the same thing with a Buderus. Of course this would only be 1/2 the problem if only real Mechanical Contractors had access to buy them. The other 1/2 of the problem is alone big enough to keep me away.

In otherwords I would say stay away from Munchkins until they get their problems fixed. Or should I say until us guys in the field finish doing the free R&D for them.
You get what you pay for.

Steve

Jack Smith

Follow the manufacturer instructions

All new products go through some growing pains. Blower failures were a sub-contractor problem. We have several Munckins installed over the last three years. Bad blowers on two of the early ones, and all other problems have been bad piping. Read the installation manual!

ScottMP

How are these

people getting access to a Munchkin ? Are **** salers doing this ? I hope not, this is Not a product to be in the hands of the general public.

I have six installed and only one has had the problems that are decribed. HTP is helping out with the one problem.

There is nothing that says you Have to upgrade to vision one, its just a nice upgrade for the customer. Maybe it will become standard.

Scott

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Chuck Shaw_2

Steve,

There is no way you should be waiting that long for parts. Give me a call so we can go over a few things. If YOUR supply house authorized it, we ship over night, first delivery. Please give me a call, so I can help you address the problem you are having geting parts. Also, if you feel you have an issue that should be covered under warranty, I will try to help you with that. And I would be happy to discuss any other issues you feel you are having with our product.

Chuck Shaw
Technical Support Department
Heat Transfer Products.
1-800-323-9651 ext 942

Larry Ticknor

Another view of the blower failure

The black plastic disc that ended up in pieces blocking the fan -- I tried to put it back together and it looked warped like it was overheated. If the plastic was shrinking it could split apart.

On the blower there is a sticker that says "Honeywell" and "Amb. temp 1 ... 70C" with a degree sign by the 70. 70 degrees C is about 160F so this part may be working at a higher temperature range than it's used to. This munchkin is in a small closet under the stairs and is used for an indirect, so it works all summer. Such a scenario may subject the part to higher temperatures than one would see for a boiler in a cold basement or garage that only is used for winter heating.

I went to the Honeywell website for information on the blower but found nothing. I then sent a query from the Honeywell website (as directed) and only got a reply to talk to my local Honeywell distributor. So I've gotten nowhere.

It could be that this is an unusual problem or that this 80M was just in a hotter environment that others and this failure mode will show up for others at a later time.

Larry

Ken_8

And your point was....

?

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john_43

point was

point was not to bash munchkin over motor failures

by the way we have close to 30 munchkin installed mostly commercial including 399's and vision 3's

Larry Ticknor

Good information for two reasons

If someone's supply house doesn't stock (or know about) Munchkin parts, they may stock Weil M parts and if you know they are identical you may be able to save a customer one or more days of a cold building and/or cold showers. Seems like there have been a couple pro's talking about troubles in getting these blowers.

Second, if the same part is used in different boilers, we should be seeing the same rate of failure in both boilers. If the parts are failing in one boiler and not in another, then it's something more than just a bad part. For a manufacturer to blame Honeywell for the bad part, they need to show that this Honeywell blower is failing in other boilers in the same way. So the question is whether these blowers are failing in every manufacturer's boiler at the same rate. Anyone know of these blower failures in Weil M. .

Thanks for the info.

Larry

Steve Eayrs

Not sure I follow you Larry

Yes, I am sure I would be able to get the part faster if its exacly the same as WeilMc, but it would be impossible to get a waranty coverage on the blower, unless the replacement part comes from Munchkin.

The main point I was making is there is something wrong with the blowers on these new Munchkins going out to begin with, let alone being told they are not under warranty. Weil could be buying a slightly different date coded blower, and not have the same problem. Why would Weil not having a problem have anything to do with? If the bearings or motor are shot on the blower, then the blower is bad, period.

I have not had enough experience on the Ultra to know if blowers are a problem for them or not. Maye someone here can give some info on this? But I don't see how this will change the fact the blower has been a problem on the Munchkin.

We finally got the parts we wanted for now, but for future reference, maybe Munchkin can let us know what the warranty on these blowers is, and how fast we can expect a new one in the future? We (or the customer) have paid for all parts so far, including UPS freight to Alaska.

Steve

Larry Ticknor

Sorry, I probably wasn't too clear ...

Steve,

My thinking on the parts being the same was ...

If you can't get the parts from a Munchkin dealer (none exist in my area)and soneone needs the boiler right away, then this may be a quick way to get the boiler back. The new blower wouldn't be warranted, but I didn't know that the new blower from HTP was warranted. The old blower appears not to be warranted.

It seems to me if blowers are failing, then someone should be stepping up to the plate and trying to help out. It could be a bad run of blowers and the manufacturer should be
offering assistance. It could be the Munchkin operating conditions are different than Weil McClain and Munchkins are failing where WM are not -- then HTP should be stepping up and offering assistance. So the reason to ask about Ultras is simply to try to see if it's simply a bad part from the manufacturer or something to do with the way the part is used in the Munchkin (for example, my blower label says ambient temp up to 160F, so maybe in the design of the mnchkin this temperature is often reached or exceeded and that's not happening in the Ultras. If this was the case this would point to poor engineering or specing the wrong part by HTP amd they should be offering assistance for their mistake. I'm not saying this has anything to do with the failures, I'm just using it as an example). Honeywell seems to be silent and people are saying it's not HTP's fault. Right now no one is accepting any blame and the customer is the loser. [Ultras have a 5 year parts and labor warranty last I knew, so maybe that's an indication that Ultras aren't having these problems -- or at least if Weil McClain is paying for all the failures, they should know if the blowers are failing.]

You are right about different date coded blowers being different. I hadn't thought about that.

The warranty on the boiler I'm looking at says the "boiler will be repaired or replaced" if there is a problem with the boiler in the 2-6 year range (I need to look at the warranty to know the exact wording). It's not the same wording that appears in the current warranties. When I called I was simply told to replace the blower and the blower was out of warranty. The older warranty information seems to be open to interpretation.

At least I don't have to pay freight to Alaska. I roamed around the Kenai Pennisula in 79-80; wish I was back there now.

Larry

Steve Eayrs

LP or NG?

Another thought...... I was wondering if these failure are related to the type of gas. Our area is all LP, w/ no NG. May have something to do with the blower issure, and also maybe the venturi problem.
Wonder if others with blower problems could state which gas they use.


Steve

Guy_5

blowers

I feel that I have to jump in here and say my piece:
First off- If someone buys a boiler then waits a year or more to install it, isn't it entirely their fault that they have an older control package? They have an older boiler. I can't take my '98 Chevy back to GM and say that I want the new Engine or stereo NOW. Actually,I'm probably wrong, I am sure that they would oblige but at a tremendous expense. I can't blame GM for that.
If you somehow feel that it is our fault that you have to wait for parts, remember that we MUST have those parts to build the boilers in the first place: If we don't have the parts to build boilers, we don't make paychecks.
As Chuck has said before, we ship parts out daily, UPS next day if so requested, so there is no reason why anyone should have to wait for any extended time for replacements.

Larry Ticknor

That's an interesting idea ...

> Another thought...... I was wondering if these

> failure are related to the type of gas. Our area

> is all LP, w/ no NG. May have something to do

> with the blower issure, and also maybe the

> venturi problem. Wonder if others with blower

> problems could state which gas they

> use.

>

> Steve

Larry Ticknor

That's an interesting idea ...

The blower failure I've seen was natural gas.

Larry

Larry Ticknor

You are right,

if we buy a first model year and there are major improvements afterward, then we can only kick ourselves for buying the first generation before all the engineering was completed.

A main point in the messages is if the manufacturer sees problems in their product, are they supporting the consumer. To continue your car analogy: In 1990, when my '82 Toyota 4WD (one of the first couple years they were produced) developed bad bearings in the transmission, I took it in for transmission work. The dealer told me Toyota had increased the size of the bearings in subsequent years, so they would pay half the parts and labor to fix the transmission problem in these old models. There was nothing in the warranty that said Toyota had to do that, Toyota was just admitting they made a mistake and were attempting to help rectify the problem. I would have liked them to pay the whole bill, but I was pleased that they would step up, admit some fault, and help rectify the situation.

What is HTP doing for the consumer to help rectify the situation?

Larry Ticknor

john_43

WEIL VS MUNCH MOTOR

A-MOTORS ARE THE SAME.
B- THEY ARE NOT HONEYWELL-ONLY THE GAS VALVES ARE
C-MUNCH STARETED EARLYER SO .THE PROBLEMS ARE ON OLDER UNITS
EARLYER VERSION OF THE SAME MOTOR .WEIL STARTED LATER WHEN THE NEWER MOTOR WAS OUT ; SO WEIL AND CURRENT MUNCH HAD THE BENEFIT OF EARLYER MUNCH UNITS (NOT UNITS OR SIZES PERTAIN)

BOTTOM LINE SAME MODEL AND DESIGN MOTOR ON BOTH JUST ONE IS A RIP OFF PRICE

Steve Eayrs

to Guy.......

I should have never mentioned the upgrades. That was not my main point. The point is that regardless the blowers have gone out on all but one boiler in this area and they don't seem to be warrantied. At the same time, if you bought a car, hauled it home on a truck, and never drove it for a year and the transmission was junk after the first 2 miles,..,,,,, Chevy would warranty it, and replace the transmission. The basis cheapest warranty would cover this.

In the case of most boilers, we have got used to only the parts being covered, in this industry. Most manufactures rarely ever haves to pay for the real $$$'s it takes to replace the part, and will in some cases, (like Munchkin) fuss a lot if you ask for them to just warranty the parts.

You can't honestly tell me you (if you were the home owner) would not have a problem with putting out over $400 for a replacement blower, on something that was new, but sat in your house for a year, and failed the first 20 mins?? To make that kind of profit on this blower would be wrong, even if the unit was old and wore out. Companies should not be rewarded for bad design, or even honest but bad mistakes. AND we as contractors should not always have to be the ones who pay the highest price in fixing these problems. Or am I just getting sick of years of taking care of design problems in the field?

Steve

Guy_5

As a rule, our warranty dept. starts the warranty period from the date of installation, provided that there is reasonable documentation to prove that date.
The warranty would cover the blower, same style control package etc. for that first one year in service. Again, it has to be within reason. If I were to put a brand new car in storage for 2 years guess what-that warranty CLEARLY says 5 years or 50,000 miles- whatever comes first. That would only allow the remaining 3 years. On top of that, they would replace whatever defective part with the newest version of the same part, and that is just what we do.

Steve Eayrs

boiler are not produce.

They will not spoil like a rotten banana, if they sit on the shelf unused.

But I hear what you are saying and know its standard in this industry, for short warranties. A major part like a blower should be more than just one year. As many problems that you have had with certain date coded blowers, I would think you should send out a recall notice, and start realizing that this is a little more of a problem than you would like to believe. Would you care to tell us how many high priced blower motors munchkin has sold in the last couple years? I doubt it.

To be fair Munchkin is not the only company that plays games with their warranties. Have you ever read the date codes on the parts on your shelf? Since we are fairly remote, and don't have a local supply house, we stock repair parts more than most. Most manufacters warranty their repair parts from the date of manufacter stamp. In otherwords if the part is on your shelf too long it runs out of warranty, regardless of how new it is. Recently replaced a Rellio burner motor, and the replacement we put on was defective. Sent it back only to be told it was beyond the 3 year warranty date. This is not a rotten apple, thats ready for the trash. We started a new policy. We check the date codes of all parts that come in, and send them right back to the supply house if they are not "fresh". Don't want no rotten parts around my shop.
I'm sure that this policy would change if these "old" parts all ended up back at the factory. At least Reillo beats most warranties. Most Honeywell parts are only 1 year.


Steve

Harold

Are the blowers fixed in current production

I am planning on a Munchkin in a couple of months. This is a scary thread. Is the problem resolved and if so how do you identify a unit with the problem corrected?

Constantin

It's pretty rotten

...that a manufacturer would stick to the date stamp rather than the time-of-sale as far as warrantyu coverage is concerned. I can see why they do it (keep warranty reserves within limits for the book-keepers) but I have to disagree with it morally. Furthermore, I doubt that the local court would not side with you if you can show that the part was never used, DOA, etc. But who can afford that sort of trouble?

IIRC however, some parts in motors, etc. do not allegedly age well. For example, the oil-based bearing seals in non-hermetic compressors (like those found in most motor vehicles) require a periodic activation to ensure that the 134a does not leak past them. That's why I use my cars AC even in the wintertime.

Particularly when it comes to very fine tolerances or some electronics, extended shelf-time may become a problem due to corrosion, dust, ESD, or other environmental factors.

Constantin

No different than Oil Changes at Honda...

One gentlemen I know reported that the local dealership attempted to charge him 3.5x more for the oil change of his NSX than a regular Acura (like $250 vs. $70) even though the engine and oil are exactly alike. When he questioned the charge, the rep didn't even say a word but revised the price instead.

Bottom line: when companies find a way to gouge, they usually have a hard time resisting the urge to do so. What else could explain the trend towards replacing instead of repairing most home appliances?

Lurker_2

Warranty

In my[non heating related business] I buy units of which I have no control over and modify and resell them. I have no recourse to the manufacturer when I get a defect. I give a one year retail warranty. Two years to the dealer, no questions asked. After that, I say, tell me a story. I have lots of happy customers. I make plenty of money.
Advice to the manufacturer:
Who cares how old the boiler is? The customer is cold. They didn't go out and beat the thing with a wrench and break it. You misdesigned, mis installed mis specified or mis purchased a bunch of blowers. Replace them. Forever. It costs you practically nothing.

Advice to the plumbing supply house:

If you sold the boiler, buy some of the blowers, [if the manufacturer makes you], keep them on the shelf. At the very least sell them at cost to the guys who bought the boilers from you, you made the markup. suck it up.

Advice to the installer:
Figure out where the time bombs are, replace the freakin blowers before next January.

All three of these groups should sit and ponder what it costs to do the above. They should ponder what it costs not to do the above. Its friggin business 101.

The guy who has a boiler that quietly works away will praise it if someone asks. The guy who's boiler dies in february will curse you to all who will listen. The guy whose heating guy calls him in august saying he wants to do some free warranty work on his boiler will evangalize from the mountain tops about you.

Failures are a part of my business, part of yours too. The customer doesn't care what percent of my units die under warranty, 100 percent of the units he bought died, that's what he cares about.

Constantin

Amen!

Larry Ticknor

I don't think anyone knows

I'm waiting for the manuracturers to reply here, but I don't think they will.

Their silence is deafening. I find this very disheartening. Where is the concern with producing a quality product? What have they done to try to figure out if there is a problem and then correcting it? They should be jumping all over any report of a blower failure trying to find out why the failures occur -- what's common between the different failures. They should be out there publicizing that they've found these problems and what they've done to fix them. Instead there is just silence.

To say the problems are fixed is to admit there was a problem with some in the first place. They seem more concerned with their own "paychecks" (see earlier response) than with producing quality products for the long run. They don't seem to want to admit anything, they seem to be willing to sell more replacement parts as long as we are gullible enough to keep buying their products.

Search the threads for Munchkin blower failures and you'll find quite a few. So maybe 1 out of 10 fail. If they fail during installation, then the contractor takes the hit becaust they have to fix the problem on their own time. If they fail afterwards, then the buyer (homeowner ofter) takes the hit becaue they have to live without heat and/or hot water and at least pay labor charges -- but more than likely they also have to pay for the new part. The only winner is the manuracturer that keeps selling the parts. The contractor and the homeowner are the losers - always.

There has been talk about bad batches, or problems with components from another manuracturer. But this is all conjecture. This is thrown out and we are supposed to believe that the problem is taken care of. I say, show us the date. I believe that no one has take the time to find out what the problem is or was. The problem could still exist and the new models just haven't been around long enough for it to show up. Again, just slience because if they admit some fault they may have to correct the problem instead of just selling high cost replacement parts.

Quality is what "The Wall" has always been about in my mind. Quality installations include quality products that the contractor can stand behind because the manufacturer stands behind their products. If the manufacturer won't stand behind their products and be open, then find a different manufacturer's product to use.

Keith says it really well in his "warranty" topic below, and I didn't see that until spilling my guts here.

Larry Ticknor

Larry Ticknor

Well said.


Let's have some of the boiler manufacturers stand up and say boiler failures are unacceptable here's what we do to track our failures, improve our products, and make sure the contractor and howeowner are satisfied if a failure does occur.

Ask a Mom with two small kids if heat and hot water are important to her and if going a couple days in winter without them every couple years is OK.

Keith has it right!

Larry Ticknor

eric legacy

Having been the warranty manager at Buderus for several years my policy was this: We issue credit on all parts from date of install. If the part is made by one of our vendors, (say XYZ electric motors) we pursue them for thier credit to Buderus. If they do not back thier part we find another vendor that will. (Say PDQ electric motors)

Its all about customer relationships and how the problems are handeled that counts. A company that backs its warranty will succeed.

A word of advice to contractors: When you submitt a labor claim you better have a well written letter that explains what happened. If a manufacturer gets an outrageous bill with no explanation and or no authorization from the local rep. it goes to the bottom of the pile. (A small pile at Buderus)
Contractors should not send 3 men to replace a relief valve and charge 75hr.per person. This happens all the time. (Round File)

BE HONEST and you will be rewarded.

Every warranty transaction has a procedure. If you call you representitive he will call us and find out how to approach your claim. The more information that gets back to us the quicker your claim will be processed. If we have to track down missing information (who , what, where, when and why)
chances are it will end up on the bottom of the pile.

This applies to all the lazy whosalers who just rout the dead parts back to us with no explanation and an exobitent labor bill with a statement of " he is a good customer you should pay this claim ASAP." (Yhea right away bud)NOT!

Its just like Grammer School if you pass in an incomplete book report you get incomplete credit. (foot notes help)

WE need to know exactly what happened so we can track failures and then come up with solutions. Draw a picture its worth a thousand words.

P.S. I quit the warranty dept. at BHS it was like a bayby sitting job. Whining contractors, poor documentation, missing parts, forms not filled out, never any pictures, no explanations, shouting matches on the phone, labor scams, doctored serial numbers.

Final Note: Buderus is launching a U.S. version wall hung boiler. We have test sites throughout the U.S.that have been running since February we have not had a single replacement part go out yet. There are 40,000 of this model (GB142) in EU. 10 years ago Buderus bought NEFIT a dutch wall hung company founded in 1948. Their factory was built by Crane Boiler after the war. Holland was war torn and our government rebuilt it. The first gas boiler NEFIT made was the Crane "Sunny Day" and it evolved from there to the world leader in superior wall hung technology. Hang in there guys.

DaveGateway

HTP blowers

Well, HTP's silence has convinced me! I am spec'ing 2 jobs now & I won't use Munchkin on either!
BP

chris h

reconsidering munchkin

I'm beginning to think the Munchkin needs more time to work out the bugs. I would invite any munchkin rep to convince me otherwise. I work on A LOT of city buildings in a progressive colorado city and get lots of questions about the munchkin. What do you say?

Steve Eayrs

Thanks Eric from Buderus

for your comments. I can speak w/ experience (over 200 Buderus boilers installed) that you guys do come through. I have only had one major boiler problem and you guys were great. You not only got me the replacement, but paid for most the labor to replace.


Steve