Munchkin 80M Blower failure

Ted_5

What do you say? Viessmann Vitodens 200

Viessmann is a quality first boiler manufacture. If there is a problem, they take care of it right away! The Vitodens has been in the US market for 3 years now and has seen very little problems, nothing is perfect but I think this boiler is as close as it gets! The key to this statement is > Viessmann is a boiler manufacture< not an importer of parts and pieces! Do they cost more? You bet they do and if you take the time to look past the price and look at the product and company, you may not think it is!
Viessmann is a privately owned company. There goal is to be the worlds best epuipment. They don't have to make huge profits to satisfy share holders, so most profits go back into R & D in the lab where it should be, not out in the field for the contractor or end user to pay for!
Please take a good look before your next boiler purches.

Ted

Ted_5

I talked to a contractor

a few weeks ago and he said the first and last M he put in lasted 3 months before before the heat-X started to leak. He said, if that wasn't bad enough it was on a cold Friday night just as he was getting ready to head out of town.
Has anyone had this problem.

Ted

John MacGregor_3

Munchkin failures

My new Munchkin has been in my new home and operating since February and I was thinking I had beat the blower gremlin, but alas, it struck over the weekend and shows an F13, blower failure fault code.
All the time we were deciding on what system to put in this house I was monitoring this website to see what the feelings of the pros were, and it seemed as though everyone was basically happy with the Munchkin.
Now it seems, we are ready to throw the damned things out. Has anyone had good success with these things? We installed about 30 of them over the last two years and it seems they are lemons or they work like a charm. We are in the process of trying to determine where the the most common problems are and go from there.
It seems that Alan Forbes was a big proponent of Munchkin.
Alan, are you still there? What are your feelings now?

Ted_5

I hate to sound like a broken record

have you tried the Vitodens. Where are you located?

Ted

steve_14

problems

Every companies have them. I know contractors who will not install your product.
Some have waited up to 4 months to get parts.And I know were Munchkins are replacing said systems.
This does make this make Viessmann a bad product. But it shows ever one has PROBLEMS.

Mark Hunt

Out of curiosity Ted


Is the Viessmann the only boiler you install?

If not, what is your alternate?


Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steve Eayrs

Just for the record..........

There must be two Steves on this thread. Either that or I've got a problem remembering what I wrote. The one above that starts out, "every companies have them", must be the other Steve. Please tell me I didn't write that!

Steve

Ted_5

I have installed others

Peerless,cast iron, good boiler, no problems but gas eater, Slantfin Concept 21, some problems, gas eater, I use to have one in my house until I replaced it with a, well you know. Saved over 400 gal. of LP last winter. Weil, didn't like them. Tried one Raypack, not again! A O Smith, lasted 7 yrs, junk! Viessmann systems is what got me hooked!

Ted

Mark Hunt

Thanks Ted


It's good to have confidence in the product you offer to customers!

I remember when I started selling Peerless. I sold a bunch of the MI series gas boilers with standing pilots. Every one I sold had the silly little problem of eating two or three thermocouples a year. Peerless addressed the problem.

I also remember the WM GV boiler. I installed quite a few of those. We eneded up going back and replacing the thermostatic valves on all of those. Now they don't even use a thermostatic valve.

I remember the Burnham V-7 series. A bad casting caused a bunch of leaky boilers. Burnham fixed the problem.

I have a Vitodens installed right now that I will have to drain down and replace the pressure gauge on. Somehow the cap tube got pinched and broken during assembly. It squirted water all over the place. Same job that I got two smashed Vitocell 300's on. The third one still had damage, but not where it would be noticed.

I remember the problems with the Riello burner on the direct vent Buderus boilers I sold.

I once asked a customer if they would be interested in a boiler that had 0% failure and a lifetime warranty on both parts and labor. They jumped at the idea! I told them that the day that that product was available I would call them. Until then, the product I was offering was the closest to that available.

We installed three Munchies this week.

I guess you all know where I stand.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Troy_3

Munchkins

I'm with you Mark. Every piece of equipment has it's weak points. The key is to know the equipment. We have installed in excess of 150 Munchkins in all different applications and I think they are the best value on the market. We sell Viessman They are nice but expensive. The key in my opinion is does the manufacturer stand behind their product. Munchkin Does! My Rep. as well as all the people at the factory have been very supportive. The owner trained me on Vision 2,3. That says a lot. These guys live this stuff and their enthusiasm is infectious. We deal in mech devices, that means mech. failures. That is why we are needed. That is why Walmart won't be selling boilers. If you don't realize that Heat Transfer is pushing this industry and all other boiler manufacturers in it- Then you aren't paying very close attention.

Larry Ticknor

Trusting your equipment

is very important.

Part of trusting your equipment is trusting that if a failure occurs the manufacturer will stand behind their product. Maybe there are differences between what is expected of the equipment and the manufacturer.

For me, asking the consumer to pay $400 (about 1/4 to 1/5 the cost of a new boiler) for a failed part every two years is excessive. If the manufacturer can stand up and say we've been tracking failures and these all come from a bad run and the next blower should last 10 years instead of 2, then this is a different story. This means I can sell the consumer a new blower with a good conscience because the manufacturer is backing me up with the information I need.

In my case, the manufacturer will tell me nothing. They don't seem to recognize the part that failed, they don't have any diagrams of the blower to look at or let me look at, they don't know how long a new blower will last because they don't know why the part failed. And even more, they don't return phone calls when I've left 3 different messages.

Marek and Troy, please tell me what parts have failed with your Munchkins and what the manufacturer did to help you out? I would like some assurance that maybe they are a better company than they appear to those of us on the outside looking in.

Thanks,
Larry

Chuck Shaw_2

If I remember correctly

we spoke last week (Friday I believe). I haven't heard from you since then, so I believed that the issue had been resolved. If you wish futher assistance, please contact me at your earliest convenience.

Chuck Shaw
Technical Support Department
Heat Transfer Products
1-800-323-9651 ext 942

Steve Eayrs

Because of this thread..............

Chuck Shaw wrote me a note too. Thanks Chuck, for your concern. If you remember right I told you who the poor supplier is, who sold these to anyone, and also can't seem to get parts in a decent time frame.

I believe you forwarded this on to those would care. Have you heard anything about blowers being warrantied yet? I have not heard back from anyone yet.


Steve

Dave Stroman

I have not installed a Munchkin. But I have 8 Trinity's installed. I understand that they use the same blower and heat exchanger. I have not had any blower failures. I picked up a blower for my truck stock and the cost to me was $200. I priced a blower at my Munchkin dealer and it was close the $500.

I don't know......

Dave in Denver

Larry Ticknor

Thanks for the info. Dave,

Is there any way you could tell me what the part number is for the Trinity blower. I don't know Trinity boilers, but maybe I should.

I'm wondering how one could tell if they are identical to the Munchkin. I would be a shame to pay over $400 for a part when the same part is available for $200. But then it would be a shame to mess up someone's Munchkin trying to save some money. I sure would like to learn more about all this.

Thanks again,
Larry

Larry Ticknor

Chuck, I did talk to you

on Tuesday, May 11th.

I would expect if HTP was seeing failures, that they would want to know what was failing and why so they could improve the quality of their product. Apparently there are more blower failures than just one.

If I was HTP and was concerned about quality, I would ask when the boiler went into service, I would keep track of part numbers and boiler serial numbers, I would ask how the boiler is being used, where it is situated, and what type of system it is connected to. I would do all this in hopes of getting some information about the failures so I might see commonalities between failures and be able to either warn consumers about these problems or change designs or comoponents to improve the reliability of the product.

When I first called I was told simply that I must replace the blower. Nothing more. When I called back specifically to talk to you I changed my questions hoping to get more information. To your credit you tried to give me more information.

I asked for a drawing of the blower. You said you didn't have one. I asked what the part did that failed. You said you didn't know. I asked if that part was necessary for proper functioning of the blower, and of course you couldn't know that if you didn't know what the part did.

You didn't offer to try to find and fax a drawing/schematic of the blower to me. You didn't offer to contact the manufacturer of the blower so you could answer my questions.

If you had offered to try to find the answers to my questions and if HTP was collecting information on failures to try to improve their product, then I would consider the issue might get resolved.

As it is, I can install a new blower, but it may not last even as long as the last one because HTP seems to have no knowledge of failure rates or causes of failures.

So, no, I don't consider the matter resolved until I get some answers to my questions and find out how long a newly installed blower should last.

Larry

Troy_3

Larry

Are you serious? The blower is an integral part of the gas valve air mix process. The blower isn't made by HT. It is made by EBM One of the largest manufacturers of this type blower. Matbe you should call them? When was the last time honeywell sent you a schematic of a gas valve so you could pull it apart and mess with it? Get real- Liability is a reality! They don't want you messin with components. Ask Viessmann or anybody else for this info and you will be denied. This sounds like a witch hunt. The blower is not the same in the Trinity boiler. Don't even think about trying to scab something together. That is very scary. Maybe atmospheric boilers with standing pilot would be more in your taste?

Larry Ticknor

Troy, yes I'm serious.

I'm really serious about wanting to install high quality, efficient systems.

Part of those systems is the boiler and high reliability is important for quality and efficiency.

I didn't know that EBM made the blower in the Munchkin. All the labels say "Honeywell", so I thought they made the part. Thanks for that information.

As I said, I don't know anything about Trinity boilers. People have said the Munchkin blowers are the same as the WM Ultra as well as the Trinity. I wouldn't want to replace a Munchkin blower with one from a different company unless I knew it was the same. So how do I know if it's the same or different -- what is it that you use to know that the Trinity blower is different than the Munchkin blower.

I don't need the schematics, nor would I ever think to ask for one if the blower hadn't failed prematurely and the manufactuer of the boiler could tell me why the blower failed and if the piece that failed is critical for the functioning of the boiler. (Saturday afternoon and I pull out a bunch if plastic out of the fan blades - I put it back together and it runs fine. Does the customer really need another blower for $420, and if so will it last longer than another 2 years. That seems like a reasonable set of questions.)

As I said, if the blower hadn't failed or if HTP had shown any interest in the cause of the failure or shown any interest in answering my questions, I wouldn't have even thought of asking for a schematic. But if the people that sold and sell the boiler don't care, then you have to start trying to figure it out yourself. I'm serious. Do you know the number of EBM or how to contact them and who to talk to?

Thanks,
Larry

Troy_3

Frustrated

I hear your frustration Larry. I agree that it seems 50% of the products we install these days need some kind of remedial work out of the box before we can start them up. That is universal and not too comforting. I just have had a whole different experience with HTP. I feel they are so much better than average. They have been very responsive and helpful. They have made changes. They have had many meetings with EBM to correct and improve EBM's design. I'm sure this has benefitted other boiler manufacturers who use their blower. This detail sometimes is not public. Just as I'm sure you don't send notices to your contractor customers when you find a better piping layout or add a microbubbler to your future system designs. People come to accept that 2 weeks after they buy their new computer that it is obsolete but their boiler better remain state of the art for it's entire life. If you ever have trouble getting parts call me I'll overnight them to you. For $160 you can offer your customer a 5 year parts and labor warrentee. I can tell you this. These guys sell alot of these boilers. I'm sure there are way more Munchkins than Monitor,Ultra, and Vitodens in The US all put together. That to me says they are going to see any imperfections faster than what might show up on these other boilers as the numbers of installs increase. And there are concerned techs at the factory to help. Even if your local support isn't great. Hang in there and I am sure they will resolve your problems. If not let me know.

Dave Stroman

I did not mean to say you should use a trinity blower on a Munchkin. My point is why is HTP selling these blowers for so much. The least they can do is sell them for a reasonable price in light of the fact that so many are going bad.

Dave in Denver

Steve Eayrs

Munchkin should be able to answer these questions....

I believe we should keep this topic alive until HTP lets us know whats up. I'm sure they appreciate devoted people like you Troy, who seem to be happy to explain their problems away, but you can't answer the hard questions. I also don't know if thay sell the quanitiy you stated. (there is a fair amount of Vitodens installed in our area, but very few Munchins). The Vitodens does cost more, but not much if the call back time is worth anything.
Also I would say that 50% of what we install having bugs, or needing defective parts replaced, is way higher than what we run into. Its more around 10% max. for us. Could this be directly related to the brand of boiler you prefer?


Bottom line.... I think HTP needs to answer for themselves why their blowers are going bad, and also why they charge such a high price for these parts, which would definitely be warrantied by the other guys mentioned, and with the standard warranty everyone gets.
I have a big problem with them making an extra high profit on replacement parts, and regardless of what they say it has to get in the way of wanting to solve the real problem. Heck....why mess up a good thing, when you can not only sell boilers but lot of parts and double the profit on each boiler.

I do appreciate the responce Chuck, but have to agree with some others that the problem real problem still remains. I may have the problem boilers currently running, but I have yet to get paid for it, since the owners somehow dare to believe that there new boiler should be under some kind of warranty. Why the nerve of those folks!!


Steve

Ted_5

Driving the wrong way !!

If you don't realize that Heat

> Transfer is pushing this industry and all other

> boiler manufacturers in it- Then you aren't

> paying very close attention.


Where do you think they are getting this technology? They're
not coming up with this on their own! It's all from Europe and where is Viessmann from? They drive the market over there. They have been tring to drive the market in this direction since 1991, but I guess Viessmann is missing one key element....Cheap! That's what drives this market!
Until people realize that quality, reliability, dependability, longevity and cheap do not go together, then HTP will always sell more boilers.

Ted

Troy_3

Nice try Steve

My comment of 50% was obviously an exageration. The reason I stand behind HTP is my experience is that my problems with them is less than others. And the most important to me is the response is better. That's what counts to me. God knows problems can happen- Who among us stand up and deals with it? Do you? I do! And I appreciate a manufacturers help when it is needed. I have had way more problems with HRVs, and scorched air junk. I don't have a clue how HTPs part pricing stacks up against Viessmann but I feel you are on shaky ground if you would rather pay Viessmann prices than HTP. If pricing is the **** than your favorite Viessmann is the demon in my mind. Not a single part on their equipment is available but from them. I drove 2 hours to get a part for a Vitola Biferal and then had buy the whole burner assembly to get the ignition transmormer. And I still sell them. It happens. Try to get Viessmann to bend on anything. Their German they don't! I don't mean to beat up on them but if you tell me paying 3 times the price is ok but their parts are cheap you better look again. Their parts are not cheap. We buy the $160 extended warrentee to cover our customers for a full 5 years parts and labor. And I'm still at least $2000 less than the big V. Choices!

Troy_3

Choices, choices,choices

Every piece of equipment has pluses and minuses it seems. None that I have tried is perfect. I've found knowing the equipment inside and out can help. That takes time and usually a little heartache. All the high efficient stuff has their own unique characteristics. Learn the boiler and how best to install it,repair it. I have had problems with Peerless, weil,Raypak,Lochinvarr,Monitor,Hydropulse,Viessmann, Munchkin,Amtrol,B&G,Taco. So are they all bad- No! I'm I just An idiot -No! They are mech. devices. You bet I wish quality control was better. I wish they all did better testing before we receive this stuff. That's why I score my suppliers on support when problems do arise.

Ted_5

Vitodens blower motor

if you need one, it has a contractor cost of $182.00 and they are instock in RI. How much is a blower on a M ??

Ted

Henry_5

Price and value

Gentlemen:

We do not live in a perfect world, mechanical things break and will continue to do so until someone can get Newton to change some of those silly thermodyn laws. ENTROPY....who knew?

As many of you have eloquently stated, you have your favorites, you have your experiences. However, we are all prepared to pay around $2K for condensing, after two years and several service issues, was that $2K was such a good deal. Have these multiple service issues hamstrung you or your reputation as using the "BEST" equipment?

I will be the first to admit installer means everything, but even Rembrandt used the best paint he could get his hands on. You were prepared to spend $2K and now there are issues and failures in two years. Would anyone not using Viessmann consider spending more for a piece that will last thirty years?

"It is unwise to pay too much, but it is also unwise to pay too little.
When you pay too much, you lose a little money, that is all.
When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do.
The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It cannot be done.
If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run.
And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

John Ruskin
England 1819-1900

Wise words from beyond the grave.

Henry

Troy_3

Reliability

I agree whole heartedly! If I could pay $2000 more and never have a problem I'm there. I haven't found that yet. I can spend more but is it really worth what you pay that is what we each individually should ask ourselves. That's why I use the equipment I do. I'm very comfortable with my choices. To say if you only weren't so cheap is a copout. I have a hard time selling value if I don't see it's worth. We do sell Viessmann. I like them! Are they worth the extra money--Sometimes. Are their parts resonable or readily accessible-No way. Not in my neck of the woods. Do I think they are the end all- No way! They are merely another choice that I use when I feel appropriate. Sometimes I give the homeowner the choice. Rarely does this work. If you want to sell The Big V. you better tell them it's their only choice. I said usually. Some people want the most expensive.

Steve Eayrs

We don't communicate well Troy.

Maybe it would be better in person.
I was comparing HTP blowers, @ around $400, w/ almost a perfect match and maybe exactly the same for the Ultra, which I believe someone here quoted for..... less?

It also puzzles me that someone can mention that the Vitodens blower motor is $182, (which I have never had to replace, and msot likely won't), and you still insist that Veissmann is way higher on parts. Well they aren't on this part, and quite possibly may not be on others.

This thread was started w/ a number of real complaints w/ Munchkin blowers. The questions asked have never really been answered on this thread. Why the extra high cost on the blower? Why is there a high rate of failure? Why is it hard to get parts in our area? Why is it so hard to get them warrantied, even when they have gone out before we could pick the tools up and go home, after firing it up?
Am I to assume that if you don't buy a $160 extra warranty then you don't really have any warranty?


None of the above are questions I have ever had to ask about the Vitodens. These two boilers are not even in the same camp. This thread is about Munchkin and munchkin problems. I would think someone could let us all know the answers to the above, who works for Munchkin. I really don't need a sales pitch, just straight answers.


Steve

Larry Ticknor

Thanks, Troy,

for your offer of help. My local support is zero right now, so sometime I may have to take you up on your offer.

Hopefully more information will come out so we can all do a better job. I have always argued that a well informed customer is a good contractors best friend because they know good from mediocre. Right now there are good questions that I can't answer and that makes me nervous.

Thanks again,
Larry

Larry Ticknor

Sorry Dave,

I got a bit over zealous in looking for a solution.
The high cost of replacement parts compared to other manufactuers makes me wonder too. I wish there was someone with HTP explaining the discrepancy. Their willingness to not answer doesn't sit well with me.

Thanks for the input.
Larry

Troy_3

Warrentee

My understanding is the standard warrentee is one year. If it failed on start up then you cannot tell me the factory won't replace it. Maybe your local support needs help. Call The Factory. I'm telling You they do stand behind these parts. As far as I know the warrentee on all the manufacturers mentioned have the same warrentee on blowers. They are made by EBM. So don't tell me the blower that EBM sells to one manufacturer is 100% and costs x but the one they sell munchkin costs (x) x 2 and is nothin but junk. Do you realize EBM makes both blowers? I know they aren't the same and that is probably why they don't cost the same. To say you will never have to replace one on Vitodens is nieve. The extended warrentee covers 5years parts and labor. These are the facts. If you are not getting a replacement blower on a startup failure then let's hear it. I'm growing very tired of all this inuendo. Give us some facts. What is the complaint? What is the problem? Is the whole issue the cost of parts? or replacement in warrentee? I feel like this is a kindergarden class.

Ted_5

Vitodens blower is not made by EBM

the gas valve is not Honeywell and the warranty is 2 yrs on parts. Viessmann makes almost all of their own parts for the Vitodens and if they are made by others, they are made to Viessmann specs for Viessmann only. They are not off the shelf parts.

Ted

Unknown

Viessmann PArts

troy,

As a Viessmann wholesaler I can tell you that I have never dealt with a better company when it comes to warranty issues or replacement parts then Viessmann.

I have had two warranty issues in the past three years, the parts were overnighted to my customer, no invoice sent to me, RGA was in my fax within an hour.

Unlike a lot of european companies Viessmann does know customer service!

Steve

Michael D. (Homeowner)

Multiple Failures On Munchkin 199M

Hello everyone,

I did a Google search for "munchkin boiler forum" and found your site, I hope you don't mind a homeowner reporting his experience.

I am really getting scared about my Munchkin 199M boiler. I moved to our current house in September 2002 and had a local HVAC contractor completely redo the heating and cooling of the 1912 vintage house we purchased. They sold me on using a Munckin 199M with a Boilermate hot water tank and a Spacepak central air system. While the Spacepak and Boilermate have been flawless, my Munchkin is currently broken once again. In the 20 months since purchase I've had the main circuit board replaced at two months, a blower replaced at the 5 month point, that second blower replaced by a third at the 15th month and now it appears my air pressure switch is defective - my contractor isn't sure. He made adjustments to a screw on it and he is going to try to get a new switch from the factory under warranty. These defects have required eight visits by my contractor's service department and a couple other visits for them to drop off emergency space heaters.

I do not know your industry at all, but I can tell you that as a homeowner I am apalled at the poor reliability of this thing so far and that there is even a question about whether these parts and labor should be covered by the factory (I had to pay $180 labor for the latest service call, but every other call was covered by my contractor). Perhaps I am a perfect example of a bad consumer mindset, but the first house I bought had a 20 year old AO Smith (I believe) furnace in it and it ran flawlessly for the 13 years I owned that house (with just a yearly inspection and cleaning). In my, and I'm sure most consumer's, mind a furnace or boiler should run many, many years without a problem. Anything that breaks this often before it is even two years old clearly is a lemon and from what I'm seeing on your and other forums today, the problems I'm having with my Munchkin 199M are widespread with other owners.

I am currently waiting for my contractor to get back to me about whether they can put in a free replacement air pressure switch as I have refused to pay for one. If the problems don't get sorted away I will inquire about Minnesota's Lemon Law and my options there. The time and expense of dealing with this boiler has been bad enough, but just wondering which minus 15 degree January weekend night it will fail again (both blower failures occured on weekends during the coldest days of winter)is very scary. This boiler was EXPENSIVE and I feel duped & stupid for owning it. I hope you gentlemen are successful in getting some answers and solutions from the vendor.

Constantin

As a fellow homeowner,

I feel your pain.

If I were HTP, I'd send a replacement unit for the lemon you have in your home - but I'd have to know you have a problem first. Perhaps their pricing/policy does not allow such generosity... or your contractor has not contacted them... or they do not track problematic unit installs the way I would to pick up satistical ananomalies - however, this may be very diffult to do!

Since I'm going with oil heat, HTP is not an option for me. However, there are a lot of folks who are happy with them. Thus, the question arises as to what is causing the many failures you are experiencing.

Larry Ticknor

Troy, since you said the blower

> I hear your frustration Larry. I agree that it

> seems 50% of the products we install these days

> need some kind of remedial work out of the box

> before we can start them up. That is universal

> and not too comforting. I just have had a whole

> different experience with HTP. I feel they are so

> much better than average. They have been very

> responsive and helpful. They have made changes.

> They have had many meetings with EBM to correct

> and improve EBM's design. I'm sure this has

> benefitted other boiler manufacturers who use

> their blower. This detail sometimes is not

> public. Just as I'm sure you don't send notices

> to your contractor customers when you find a

> better piping layout or add a microbubbler to

> your future system designs. People come to accept

> that 2 weeks after they buy their new computer

> that it is obsolete but their boiler better

> remain state of the art for it's entire life. If

> you ever have trouble getting parts call me I'll

> overnight them to you. For $160 you can offer

> your customer a 5 year parts and labor warrentee.

> I can tell you this. These guys sell alot of

> these boilers. I'm sure there are way more

> Munchkins than Monitor,Ultra, and Vitodens in The

> US all put together. That to me says they are

> going to see any imperfections faster than what

> might show up on these other boilers as the

> numbers of installs increase. And there are

> concerned techs at the factory to help. Even if

> your local support isn't great. Hang in there and

> I am sure they will resolve your problems. If not

> let me know.

Larry Ticknor

Troy has said the blower is an EBM,

so I went to the EBM-Papst website (ebmpapst.com). I
sent e-mail through the website to EBM. An "application enginneer" responded within about 24 hours. He said the plastic part that came apart in my blower was for sound dampening and not critical to the functioning of the blower (the blower is louder now to my ears).

He also said the "L10" for the blower I asked about is 40,000 hours(they expect at least 90% of the blowers to last at least 40,000 hours) at 40 degrees C. I asked about a blower running at the uppper end of their ambient temperature range (70 degrees C or about 165 degrees F) and he didn't have data on that but would guess the "L10" could go down to 20,000 hours.

I don't know what the temperature of the blower is when it's running all the time or what is the most temperature sensitive part, but I did record a temperature of 120 degrees F where the blower bolts to the heat exchanger section when the blower was completely ramped up. So this still doesn't give any reason the blower should be failing, but the temperatures could have some effect.

A main point here is that EBM was very responsive to me (a nobody) with several questions. Why couldn't HTP (a larger customer of EBM) ask EBM those questions and pass the information on to me. Certainly it would help HTP technical service to know the answer in case another customer like myself had that problem/question.

I still question HTP's commitment to quality and sevice.

Larry Ticknor

Michael D. (Homeowner)

HTP Has Already Emailed Me!

Within 15 minutes of posting my bad experiences with my Munchkin 199M I was contacted by HTP with a pledge to get my problems sorted out. I feel bad for not contacting them before writing a negative post, and I hope I can report a happy resolution soon. They want to work with my contractor to make sure my Munchkin 199M operates reliably in the future. They seem concerned and willing to take on any responsibility that is theirs, so wish me luck and I will post how it all turns out!

R. Kalia

> Hello everyone,

>

> I did a Google search for

> "munchkin boiler forum" and found your site, I

> hope you don't mind a homeowner reporting his

> experience.

>

> I am really getting scared about

> my Munchkin 199M boiler. I moved to our current

> house in September 2002 and had a local HVAC

> contractor completely redo the heating and

> cooling of the 1912 vintage house we purchased.

> They sold me on using a Munckin 199M with a

> Boilermate hot water tank and a Spacepak central

> air system. While the Spacepak and Boilermate

> have been flawless, my Munchkin is currently

> broken once again. In the 20 months since

> purchase I've had the main circuit board replaced

> at two months, a blower replaced at the 5 month

> point, that second blower replaced by a third at

> the 15th month and now it appears my air pressure

> switch is defective - my contractor isn't sure.

> He made adjustments to a screw on it and he is

> going to try to get a new switch from the factory

> under warranty. These defects have required eight

> visits by my contractor's service department and

> a couple other visits for them to drop off

> emergency space heaters.

>

> I do not know your

> industry at all, but I can tell you that as a

> homeowner I am apalled at the poor reliability of

> this thing so far and that there is even a

> question about whether these parts and labor

> should be covered by the factory (I had to pay

> $180 labor for the latest service call, but every

> other call was covered by my contractor). Perhaps

> I am a perfect example of a bad consumer mindset,

> but the first house I bought had a 20 year old AO

> Smith (I believe) furnace in it and it ran

> flawlessly for the 13 years I owned that house

> (with just a yearly inspection and cleaning). In

> my, and I'm sure most consumer's, mind a furnace

> or boiler should run many, many years without a

> problem. Anything that breaks this often before

> it is even two years old clearly is a lemon and

> from what I'm seeing on your and other forums

> today, the problems I'm having with my Munchkin

> 199M are widespread with other owners.

>

> I am

> currently waiting for my contractor to get back

> to me about whether they can put in a free

> replacement air pressure switch as I have refused

> to pay for one. If the problems don't get sorted

> away I will inquire about Minnesota's Lemon Law

> and my options there. The time and expense of

> dealing with this boiler has been bad enough, but

> just wondering which minus 15 degree January

> weekend night it will fail again (both blower

> failures occured on weekends during the coldest

> days of winter)is very scary. This boiler was

> EXPENSIVE and I feel duped & stupid for owning

> it. I hope you gentlemen are successful in

> getting some answers and solutions from the

> vendor.

Constantin

Fantastic News

It seems like HTP is taking this thread seriously and thus is going about getting their issues resolved. I hope your installer will appreciate the help of the factory - some object to a helping hand since it implies they don't know what they're doing.

Anyway, the thread does raise an interesting question. If you were a boiler manufacturer, how would you ensure that you get to know your customer? For that matter, who is your customer, the installer or the HO? How to best track replacement repairs, etc. in a predicable, accurate manner? Considering the wide range of installers and practices, this could be an interesting challenge...

For example, you could be doing 100% inspections at the plant, register every component S/N going into each boiler. Then read about supply houses doing component swaps to get someone emergency heat by cannibalizing a unit on the shelf until the replacement part comes in. Now how do I track my ingredients?