How can we complain about gasoline prices?......hb

Darin Cook_2

How come there is still oil?

I remember as a kid in the seventies watching tv, there were tv commercials that kept saying the world would be out of oil in 25 years. Well going on 30 years later there is still oil and as you know, a great many vehicles driven do not get any better mileage than the 76 F-250 with a 460 in it. The process of the earth making oil never stops. If it came from T-Rex bones it would have run out a long time ago. Just out of curiosity was the train a American or a European invention. Been to Europe many times and the train system is a great way to travel(fast and cheap). But could you imagine if they tried to build a passenger train system similiar to that here? I am not talking Amtrak here. The train system there goes practically to every town or city, with spurs going into the citys. If our government started with the emminent domain crap to build a new rail system that would probably start a civil war. The railroad here still moves a massive amount of cargo through this country(my bro-in-law is a dispatcher for CSX)so it is not like we do not utilize the rail system. But those tracks typically would not be prudent for how the rail system is set up in Europe. There are no easy answers to this because there are so very many other factors involved(political,big business,human resistance to change,etc).

Constantin

A big factor in public transportation...

...is access, as you pointed out. Most US communities are not planned to allow access by public transportation, even though the cost of planning it in is zero (i.e. leave a strip set aside for a future rail or bus link, if needed).

As long as communities are not forced to do it, most of them won't. They simply do not think that far in advance or they're too "exclusive" and don't want the riff-raff to come into town (ever wonder why Georgetown has no subway stops, even though the Washington metro goes right under the town?) For the most part, public transportation is an afterthought in the US and hence not nearly as popular as it is elsewhere in the world (gas prices help too).

Another huge factor in the US is how spread out we are. In france, and to a lesser extent in Germany and elsewhere in the EU, population densities are higher than in the US, but they tend to be clustered. Thus, it is perfectly possible to lay a new rail line in a densely-populated country with a minimum of house demolishment because you simply aim for areas where there are no clusters of homes. The TGV lines in France are about as straight as it gets, and it's one of the reasons they can run as fast as they can.

So where the US is very spread-out due to its car culture, the EU prefers (by and large) to remain within villages, etc. These villages in turn support local businesses (why drive to the bakery, if you can walk?) in ways that US culture does not. While walking to the bakery, you may even meet your neighbors (shocking idea, isn't it?) and even talk to them, another factor sorely lacking from todays "cocoon" culture.

Anyway, until car transportation becomes significantly more expensive than other means of transportation, we can expect this aversion to public transportation in the US to continue. I always find it amusing to see the huge incentives, subsidies, etc. paid for public works projects with highways,etc. while every effort is made to force rail companies to survive on their own. Truely ironic.

jim sokolovic

Mad Dog

yep, and the United States would be all metric by 1980

too!!!!!!!!! Mad Dog

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Mark_25

I disagree with your disagreeing....

To be fair, you may have a different idea of boating than I do. My buddy has an '89 Glasstron speedboat. 16' of fun with a big block chevy engine. It weighs 5000lbs. It's trailer weighs 2000 lbs. 7000 lbs is heavier than ANY minivan and most SUV's are rated to haul legally, and if you tow it illegally, your insurance won't cover you in event of accident. Not to mention try and get a 4 x 8 sheet of anything in a minivan and you know why most folks with trucks buy them. Me included. I bought a truck because I haul antique farm equipment around, and needed a truck that can haul 10,000 lbs safely. I did buy the diesel though. I get near 20 mpg most of the time. But I don't drive it all the time. We have a Passat TDI, and I am into diesel small cars, so almost everything we own gets 45-50 mpg normally. But I am in the minority, as most folks aren't willing to buy diesels.
So to sum up, 3500 lb tow ratings are in the "light duty" category for most of the nation. I seldom see anyone towing anything with a minivan of the FWD category (Astros excepted, which are a little more than a minivan) and when I do, they are truly scary looking while doing it.

Mark_25

And you will be waiting a long long time...

Signed,
A mechanical engineer.....

Mark_25

I'd like to see your information regarding the 'continual replenishment of oil' theory. I've never heard such a thing, and to be honest, I have a hard time believing the earth is generating complex hydrocarbons from nothing but rock and water, since we're not putting any carbon back down in the hole when we're done.

Mark_25

HYDROGEN CARS - *RANT*

Well, this mechanical engineer is about SICK of everyone talking about how great hydrogen cars are going to be! Let's look at this hydrogen economy.

1. Hydrogen generates power by fusing with oxygen to form H20. It's byproduct is water.

2. Where is this hydrogen going to come from? The atmosphere? Bzzzt. Wrong. There isn't enough hydrogen in the atmosphere for one country to go anywhere long, much less a country of consumers like the USA. Hydrogen comes from water and (drum roll - electricity). You use electricity to produce the hydrogen. About as much electricity as you put in, you get out the other end of the hydrogen conversion, with a caveat, I'll explain later).

3. Where do you get the electricity to make all this hydrogen? *FOSSIL FUELS or nuclear*

4. Which brings me to my point. HYDROGEN IS AN ENERGY TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM, NOT A POWER SOURCE. You aren't using a previously untapped energy source to move your car down the road, hydrogen cars only displace pollution to a centralized location, your power factory.

5. One additional energy conversion than direct combusion means one additional efficiency loss. Energy conversions come at a price. Every time you convert mechanical/chemical/solar/whatever to electric and back again to mechanical, you have a loss of net energy. So your power plant burns coal at 50% net efficiency, pushes the power down the wires to your local hydrogen plant, where they convert electricity to hydrogen with a loss, then they truck/pipe it to the gas station, pump it into your car, you "burn" it back to electricity and water, with another loss. The net efficiency from coal lump to your car moving down the road actually DROPPED, and more fuel was used to move you down the road than if you had just burned fuel to move it in the first place.

ALMOST ALL the energy sources on this planet use stored fossil fuels as the initial energy input. And this just aint gonna change any time soon, regardless of what the GREENIES tell the public.

If you want to save fuels, BUY A FUEL EFFICIENT VEHICLE. Small diesel cars can get in the 50 mpg range on cheap diesel fuel. Hybrids get 35-40 mpg in real world usage, and you have to replace a pile of batteries every few years for a couple thou each time.

From an engineering perspective, newer diesel engines are simply the most efficient engines on the planet for end users. End efficiencies approaching ~45-50% are possible, compared to ~30% with gasoline engines.

PJO_5

The point was...

Driving an SUV and "suck it up"...

If I had to pull 7,000 pounds, then I'd drive a pickup that can also hold the family. My father drives a diesel powered Chevy four door truck...would easily pull that trailer...and he gets 25 mpg on the highway. Holds a 4x8 sheet, too but the truck is pretty long :-)

I find it pretty rare that a 16' boat weighs 5,000 lb. (must be the motor!) and even more rare that a trailer that size weighs 2,000 lb. Not doubting you Mark, but it is a bit unusual...and I don't recall a boat that heavy regularly getting in and out of the water too much...although I'm not around the boat ramps much anymore.

While a 3,500 pound tow rating may be "light duty" it covers most of the recreational stuff around...including boats, quads, bikes, etc. I rarely see anyone else towing with a minivan either, but I don't mind being "different". I just towed my Dad's log splitter to his house for Easter with the family all dressed up...luckily I didn't get my nice pants dirty un-hitching it :-)

The point is this; 90% of SUV's and trucks are never used for what they are designed; towing larger things, off-road use, etc. The only time most of them get mud is if the soccer mom parks on the grass in the rain. That makes for an incredible amount of wasted energy and pollution on a regular basis.

For those people that use them as designed - great! Contractors, serious off-roaders/boaters, etc. It's like the van we had when I grew up; Dodge extended w/ 360 c.i. motor...probably 8 mpg, but there were 15 people in my family (yes, 13 kids). That sucker pulled our 22 foot boat (4,000 lb w/trailer) and all of us, too.

It's great you drive a diesel, too. I think they will also get a bit more popular again soon.

Take Care, PJO

Mad Dog

Thank you for some common sense facts rather than

the feel-good sound bytes the greenies like to throw out as fact. Ok, I'm half-human atleast, I couldn't stay out of the fray. I never could stay on the sidelines for more than a play or two...........Mad Dog

Mark Hunt

Take a look here


Found it by Googling "Origins of oil".

Maybe what we were/are led to believe is not the case after all?

http://www.davidicke.net/mysteries/reports/oil.html

Mark H

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Mark_25

And my point was that most of the SUV's you see on the road are a logistical compromise because most folks only get to have ONE or TWO vehicles at the outside, and they tend to get the ones that will do EVERYTHING they think they'll want to do in the forseeable future, and let the fuel mileage fall where it may. Do you really want to hunt around to find someone to haul a 4x8 sheet of drywall home once every two weeks, or rent a $19/hour Home depot truck?
Of course not. You spend the extra $10/week in gas for the convenience of running to HD whenever you want. This country is simply NOT set up to encourage fuel conservation. In my experience there are two and only two groups interested in fuel conservation:

1. Tightwads (like me)
2. Tree-huggers

Mark Hunt

Another good study


http://people.cornell.edu/pages/tg21/usgs.html

Mark H

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Mad Dog

ahhhhhhhh I knew Hunt would show up

Mad Dog

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PJO_5

If that is the case....

Then when is the last time anyone saw a full-size SUV with a 4x8 sheet of drywall? Not happenin' around here...
Even most of the trucks don't have too many loads of stuff in the back, and the ones that do...see my last posting.

Most (90%) of the SUV's I see are simply hauling people around...just like a more efficient (and much cheaper) minivan or wagon would do. Or, like HB saw, they are commuting in them to work as well.

My last point was that people are simply driving the wrong vehicle in most cases as it pertains to the environment, their pocketbook, and sometimes their garage. My neighbor has a Hummer H2...possibly the most useless vehicle of all...and it won't fit in his garage! I believe big SUV's are more of a status symbol than most people admit.

How about a third group of people...ones that would prefer to spend their heard-earned money elsewhere (partially tightwad?). I am also a combination of the first two I guess...

Very good point about this country not being set up for fuel conservation, Mark...I couldn't agree more. Hopefully the hybrids will help with that in the short term, and the long term? Who knows.

Take Care, PJO

Ken C.

DanHolohan

Here on the glorious Isle of Long,

you might see a 110-pound women, all by herself in an H-2. She's going to have her nails done.

Hey, who's better than her? ;-)

Ken C.

I like your perspective and comparisons

You wrote, "So where the US is very spread-out due to its car culture, the EU prefers (by and large) to remain within villages, etc. These villages in turn support local businesses (why drive to the bakery, if you can walk?) in ways that US culture does not." I visited the Netherlands in 1997, and stayed in a village just like you describe. The public transportation system there is excellent. Bus service in and out of Amsterdam included stops at even the smaller villages, and you didn't have to wait very long for a bus. Another thing that struck me was the advanced system of bike paths (complete with traffic signals). It was like a superhighway for bicycles. In Amsterdam, there were more bikes than cars. Also a great light rail system in the city. Scooters were also a common sight. I think I saw only one or two SUVs during my two-week stay.

Brian_19

Most car buying is an emotional decision. We all try to buy what is the most practical, safest, and most efficient. However when the time comes we all buy what we think is cool. I drive a Chevy Avalanche and I love it. Why didn't I buy a fuel efficient compact car, because quite frankly they suck! Who really enjoys driving a chevy Geo. Owning a vehicle we think is cool is a form of entertainment. We love to spend weekends polishing and cleaning them sometimes adding custom accessories. It is all about having fun with them.

Brian_19

Most car buying is an emotional decision. We all try to buy what is the most practical, safest, and most efficient. However when the time comes we all buy what we think is cool. I drive a Chevy Avalanche and I love it. Why didn't I buy a fuel efficient compact car, because quite frankly they suck! Who really enjoys driving a chevy Geo. Owning a vehicle we think is cool is a form of entertainment. We love to spend weekends polishing and cleaning them sometimes adding custom accessories. It is all about having fun with them.

Unknown

You're right, but you're missing one key point, and that is electricity does not *have* to be generated with fossil fuels.

sure, if we just switch everything over to a hydrogen economy right now, it would simply centralize pollution.

However, you *can* generate clean hydrogen electrolysis reactions with solar, wind, or any other source of electrical generation. You *can not* generate gas with solar energy alone. This is why hydrogen is one key step to being greener. It's not the ONLY step. Just a KEY step.

Or, make battery technology vastly superior to what it is today. But that's stagnated for a long time now and doesn't seem very likely, while hydrogen and solar technologies have both been improving and getting cheaper. It's only a matter of time before the economic cost-benefit ratio there switches. Hopefully it will be before we aren't left with enough oil to make useful plastics out of instead of lighting it all on fire. I think it will be though, as if that starts to happen oil prices will go through the roof.

John@Reliable_9

God, pity the man.............

who would get between a LI queenie and her nails! hehehe

John@Reliable_9

But what about the beautiful people!............

not far from where I live,they want to build a wind farm.
The wind farm will be I think something like 5 or 6 miles off the coast of Cape Cod. The first ones to **** are the ones we are talking about and the Kennedys why? it will destroy our view they say.

J.C.A._3

Patrick,

You've hit the nail on the head! Most people ARE driving "more than they need". After the Audi, I was forced into a mini-van, so I chose the one that would make my life easier. All wheel drive, (and let me tell you, with some of my customers driveways, loading the tools into it for a call wasn't the worst thing I've ever done!)
It got around 16 MPG tops. While gas prices were, at the time, coming down, it didn't seem so bad. When they started climbing, yet again, I decided that it was time for a new vehicle. I chose a Pontiac Vibe, same as the Toyota Matrix with a "swoopier" front end.It can haul quite a bit, surprisingly. It just made sense to me, 35+ mpg and comfort that was extremly reasonable. I ain't towing anything with it, but it holds alot of stuff for an eco-box. It suits my needs fine, I've got a truck for work...Thanks Mr.Milne! Plenty O' room, quality construction, all the latest safety features and creature comforts out the wazoo. What more can I ask for? Chris

Robert O'Connor_7

Complain about gas prices?

I predict that (maybe not in my lifetime) Gasoline engines will go by the way side. The fuel of the future being what though? Hydrogen looks good but it's a bit^* to produce (now). Soon there will be technology and or a breakthrough with the NEXT fuel source, I think it will be Hydrogen. Stay tuned!..... I personaly like CH3 NO2 but at $36.25 a gallon it gets expensive especially when the weekend ride uses 4 gallons a minute @ idle with only one of the two pumps on....Robert O'Connor/NJ

Duncan_15

Decent *RANT*, but what's a greenie?

What is a GREENIE ?

What is that? Anybody who doesn't drive an SUV? Or somebody who thinks hydrogen as a fuel is viable? Whatever a GREENIE is, it sounds like you think it's a bad thing.

Mark_25

I didn't miss it, I dis-included it. The amount of power generated by "green" sources is misicule. Until everybody has a wind generator in their backyard, or a rooftop of PV panels, green generation is a wet dream. Look at the total kW's used in the US in a month vs the green generation going on in that time period. It's a tiny percentage. My original assertion stands, that MOST of the power generated in the World is Fossil fuel or nuclear based, and will be for quite some time.

Mark_25

A Greenie:

1. Tree hugger
2. Back to nature/Let's live in trees
3. Flower child
4. Liberal

All kidding aside, politically, the most important thing to a GREENIE is "changing the world" to thier beliefs. I don't know how to describe them other than to be derogatory. So I'll let you decide beyond this what a greenie is. I usually don't agree with them. Usually, from my experience, they base a lot of assumptions on junk science, and don't seem to be able to do thier own research on same.

As I stated in my RANT above, hydrogen IS NOT A VIABLE FUEL. ITS AN ENERGY TRANSPORT MECHANISM. I've explained why. Most people GET IT. GREENIES won't, because they can't believe that the people that told them it's a good thing would lie to them. Look at any article written on hydrogen economy. It's a glowing report on how great a fuel it is, it's readily available, it's byproducts are water, nothing else, blah blah blah. NOTHING stated about where the hydrogen comes from. When someone writes an article or three, or ten articles about how great something is and is lying to you, BY DEFINITION, THEY HAVE AN AGENDA!
Do the research yourself, get educated, it's not difficult science to learn. You'll see if you look.

Man, don't get me started again....

Mark_25

> Soon there will be technology and or a

> breakthrough with the NEXT fuel source, I think

> it will be Hydrogen. Stay tuned!.....

Sigh....

See above rant.

*BANGS HEAD AGAINST WALL REPEATEDLY*

PJO_5

By the time...

Hydrogen fuel cells are readily available, how about if we as a country have slowly but surely improved our renewable energy?

Picture this; 20 years from now, the hydrogen cars are making headway into the mainstream of hybrid-powered cars (like hybrids are today to "regular" cars) and we are relying on 20% of our energy supply from solar, wind, biodiesel and even some wave/tidal sources. Fourty years from now? How about 50% renewable...

Mark, that surely is not out of the realm of this great country...unless people keep blinders on and keep burning fossil fuel with nary a thought, and maintain the attitude of consternation and ignorance. This idea is, IMHO, not radical...but practical...a steady improvement is all that is required, along with conservation. Just imagine if this country would have kept the "momentum" going that started in the early 80's...where would we be now?

From a "certified" greenie, this quote is from a Native American (I believe)...the truest of Americans:
"We do not inherit the Earth from our forefathers, we borrow it from our children's children."

Can you describe that last statement as "anything but derogatory"?

Respectfully, PJO

eleft_4

Not sarcasm

Jim.

Stating a fact.. what does living in a large home have to do with gas prices?

I don't know about you ... I never did a large profitable project for the so called "poor".

Why knock the wealthy?

old saying " don't pee where you drink"

al

Mad Dog

Exactly, thats what troubles me

The great difference between us and Europe is freedom and choice, and I would like to keep it that way. Just an example. Heard on the news yesterday that England has more surveillance cameras in place than any other place on Earth. An average Briton, on an average daily commute, will be picked up on camera an average of 300 times - THATS IN ONE DAY! 1984? Animal Farm anyone? As I've said before, conservation of water, fuel, and open space is something very dear to my heart. I've even been called liberal- leaning in this area - imagine that. I've even got in to a fist fight when I worked at Riker's Island Prison (An Island Prison in The East River across form Manhatttan)because this real knuckleheaded laborer would leave the outdoor water fountain rigged to run all the time, so that he could have "fresh water" whenever he felt like it. I asked him nicely everyday and explained how wasteful this was. You know how it went. I would see his rig and disable it....later that day, he would put it back. You know how mischeivious construction workers can be....the guys started egging us on. Finally, he told me to go blank myself, that I should move upstate becuase there was unlimited water up there and that the next time I "shut off" his water I was "gonna get a beatin'....." We scrapped to a draw, but he never it again. He actually came and apologized the next day and was amazed that I "cared so much." I am also a fanatic about people who litter and chastise people all the time. I despise all the farm land and forest that is being developed, but I equally despise those environmental nuts who "spike" trees so that lumberjacks get killed. America has and always will adapt and move foward. We can definitely use some of Europes proven ideas, but as Americans we have fought for and earned freedom of choice. I don't want anyone legislating what size car I can drive, food I eat, or boiler I want to put in - as long as innocent bystanders are not hurt, it is an Americans right and prerogative to drive as big an SUV or electric car that he chooses. Where does it stop? If PETA had their way, we wouldn't be allowed to eat any meat whatsoever. Same with some Greenies....if they had their way, recreational boating, snowmobiling et al would be deemed gluttony, and unecessary and would be banned. Conservation of natural resources needs to be strongly encouraged and even financially rewarded, but should not be completely mandated by law. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Yeah, and she'll be the first to cut you off and give you the

finger!!!!!!! I don't care for those nouveau-riche types, but I believe it is her prerogative to drive that "monster truck.". Mad Dog

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Unknown

Ya, it drives me nuts too. I'm a big proponent of renewables, but then to watch other "environmentalists" up in arms about bird fatalties I just throw my hands up...

Unknown

So you ignored everything else I said there. It's a step. It's not a magic wand that will fix everything tomorrow. But it is a necessary step if we are ever going to get off of fossil fuels, which even if they never ever run out, we should do simply to eliminate pollution in cities and reduce our dependance on foreign oil.

As I noted, both renewables and hydrogen technology are progressing and becoming cheaper. Down the road that's a pretty powerful combination. It sounds like you're saying that just because we haven't canned all our coal plants that we shouldn't bother developing hydrogen technology, and I'm sorry, that's pretty short sighted.

Unknown

By the way, ALL fuels are energy transport mechanisms. That's a meaningless differentiation. You're just pointing out that right now, we have to use as much energy as we get back out of the hydrogen to use it as a fuel (to create hydrogen).

As I've noted, there are options as to how we can create that energy to create hydrogen. Some of those options are sustainable. Those options will inevitably grow in popularity as they become cheaper and fossil fuels grow more expensive. You can ignore that and keep ranting, or you can look ahead a little further...

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Was just in London and can verify that cameras are EVERYWHERE--particularly in the central city. Smart a## that I am, I'd usually wave and make a stupid face when I saw one pan to look at me... Will verify that nobody came running to tell me to "stop that".

Even though I know that violent crime is quite rare in the UK, it actually made me feel a bit more secure in a big, crowded, busy, unfamiliar city.

As to freedom and choice there: from what I could see it's not much different than here--it's just that you're expected to behave appropriately to your location.

The automated speeding ticket system on their big highways is a bit much though...

Mad Dog

Does a camera really make you feel safe???????

It may even be a drone. I'll take my chances on The Streets of NYC...camera is not going to stop me form getting mugged or shot. You don't have to go to Engalnd to see "automated" speeding tickets. New Jersey does it with EZ PASS. If you get on at a certain exit and get off at a ceratin exit, and THEY determine that you did it too fast.....you will be issued a ticket in the mail...too much big brother for me, Michael. Hope you enjoyed your trip...how was the fish N chips? Yeah I always make faces in the camera too. Mad Dog

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Unknown

Mark, Your right,,,

"Hydrogen is not the most abundant element in the universe. Stupidity far outweighs it. " (Frank Zappa)

Seriously though, this topic deserves it's own thread. I wouldn't mind conversing about "Fuel Cell Viability"

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Duncan_15

Labels

Hey! That's ME! Part of me, anyway. I suppose it's exactly the derogatory aspect of THE LABEL that bugs me. I pretty much really do know what you mean, but where do you draw the line? Letting me decide what a greenie is means it's more or less anyone who doesn't believe what I believe about conservation, the environment, etc.

For instance, as a man of science and engineering, I suspect you concur with most of the respected scientific community that believes the scientific evidence pointing towards chloroflourocarbons depleting the ozone level.

Some might consider an individual who believes that as "an enviromentalist wacko". Now -with that label- that believer has become an unthinking ideologue (enviro wacko), essentially an idiot whose ideas don't count, not a human being.

I've got a feeling most idealistic kids eventually come to grips with a more real-istic and less ideal-istic way of thinking, of not only the laws of physics, but also about what they can and cannot accomplish or change. Most reasonable people would definitely draw the line well before a 12 million dollar ski lodge or several million dollar housing developement is torched.

But there are worse ideals to have than conservation. The world needs dreamers too. I'm guessing there were a few mechanical engineers who thought the Wright brothers were nuts.

Anyway, I understand hydrogen and oxygen bonding and that it takes considerably more energy to rip them apart than the energy released when they combined. And that we don't have infrastructure to transport it even if it were available (unrelated to your term energy transport mechanism).

C'mon, why not get another *RANT* started?... What do you see in the longterm future? Another few centuries of oil? Coal conversion? A quantum leap with a new technology? We got past the industrial (steam) era and buffalo-hide-belt energy transfer systems... Electricity started a whole new level of production. Semiconductors changed things... Are we gonna unlock a whole new technology, or run out of oil and be plunged into chaos and the New Dark Ages? That'd be a cross between New Age and The Dark Ages.