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How can we complain about gasoline prices?......hb

heatboy
heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
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  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    I want my SUV, damn it!

    I had the pleasure of Cheese’s company for breakfast this morning. We try and meet once a month or so somewhere in between where he and I live. On the way to meet him this morning, I was passed by, what I must refer to as a convoy of 5 vehicles doing about 80 MPH. They were from first to last, a Toyota Sequoia, a Cadillac Cavalcade, a Ford Excursion, a Ford F350 with tires the size of a small Toyota and a GMC Yukon. Each vehicle had one occupant. I thought about how much gasoline they used going from one end of Rt. 33 to the other which is about 40 miles. I figure an average MPG was about 12 ( being gracious). The five used almost 17 gallons of gasoline in 40 miles. But hey, this is America and we deserve cheap fuel.

    hb


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  • roger provencher
    roger provencher Member Posts: 14
    if you think

    it,s all because of oil you have been asleep for the last couple of years
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,380
    Look to Europe for the solution

    There, they tax consumption more than income. Fuel is more expensive for vehicles than for homes, mostly because of the tax structure. And I believe their sales taxes and registration fees are considerably higher for less-fuel-efficient vehicles.

    Most European cities also have highly-developed mass-transit systems, and passenger railroads linking the different cities are also well-developed. And European boiler makers have been producing more-efficient boilers for some time now.

    Compare that to America. Private railroad companies could not compete with tax-supported highways and artificially low gas prices. Many large cities have poor mass transit. Passenger train service is but a shadow of its former self. And many houses still have old, inefficient boilers... and I don't see how any scorched-air or heat-pump system can be called efficient. And our obsession with air-conditioning uses even more energy.

    The current administration is beholden to the oil and other energy companies who wish to maintain the status quo in order to fatten their CEOs' bank accounts at the expense of everything else. We will never see any meaningful change unless we vote them out.

    If you want change, vote for it. If you don't vote, you have no right to complain.

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  • Mike Kraft_2
    Mike Kraft_2 Member Posts: 398
    A cry from................

    the forest on the left:)You are a troublemaker Jeffrey:)Welcome to capitalism........Tightening the belt aint in our agenda..........Can't wait till breakfast in May!

    cheese

    PS.:I was setting plumbing fixtures in a new home.Kohler and American Standard fixtures..........made in Mexico.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,380
    They'd still make them in the USA

    if their CEOs weren't so greedy.

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  • scrook_2
    scrook_2 Member Posts: 610
    actually...

    while gasoline prices are up significantly in the last 6 months or so, making a mess of budgets, etc. it is interesting to look at the inflation adjusted prices of gas from 1919 to 2003 ( http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/fsheets/RealMogasPrices.html )

    where we see gasoline was at its CHEAPEST in 1998 and 1999, and of the 10 ALL TIME cheapest years, 8 are in the 1990's (the other two being 2002 and 1988) The cheapest 20 years has only one year earlier than the 1980's and that's 1973 (we all -- well many of us -- remember '73 and then '74?)

    Conversely the 10 MOST expensive years for gas were, in order: 1981, 1980, 1922, 1920, 1919, 1921, 1934, 1936, 1937, and 1938!

    In fact we have (to the extent we believe the consumer price index is the ideal measure of the true cost of living, which it isn't, though it is a reasonable approximation) currently just barely exceeded the *real* price of gas in 1973 ("the good old days" just *before* the Arab Oil Embargo and "gas lines").

    Don't take this as a comment the merits of US (or other)international policy as a function of oil reserves, domestic auto fuel economy (or other domestic energy standards) standards law as currently written, the popularity of certain classes of vehicle in America today, the choices of OPEC on how much of their product they should pump, the energy futures and spot markets, or the oil companies refinery production rates vs capacity of gasoline in particular or all distillates in general.

    For that matter, don't think I haven't noticed gasiline is up a significant precentage in a short period, regardless of where it is compared to historical prices.

    This is just an observation that headlines (such as a recent Reuters item) "Gasoline Pump Prices Hit All-Time High" do not mean quite what we imagine them to mean, though it is, technically, not a false statement.
  • Mike Kraft_2
    Mike Kraft_2 Member Posts: 398
    Steamhead..........

    I guess thats my point:)I'm truely sorry to be missing wetstock 4 in your backyard.I was looking forward to listening @ your steam table.

    cheese
  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    Here we go again, and once again I did not start the ball

    rolling. Sure, we can learn something from the Europeans about energy conservation and the like, but let's stop idolizing them ok? This is all I will post, but as I promised last time, I will point out the political agendas when I see them. Respectfully, Mad Dog

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  • scrook_2
    scrook_2 Member Posts: 610
    See my post above...

    for another obervation (on prices, not Europe).
  • Jim S
    Jim S Member Posts: 82


    > I had the pleasure of Cheese’s company for

    > breakfast this morning. We try and meet once a

    > month or so somewhere in between where he and I

    > live. On the way to meet him this morning, I was

    > passed by, what I must refer to as a convoy of 5

    > vehicles doing about 80 MPH. They were from

    > first to last, a Toyota Sequoia, a Cadillac

    > Cavalcade, a Ford Excursion, a Ford F350 with

    > tires the size of a small Toyota and a GMC Yukon.

    > Each vehicle had one occupant. I thought about

    > how much gasoline they used going from one end of

    > Rt. 33 to the other which is about 40 miles. I

    > figure an average MPG was about 12 ( being

    > gracious). The five used almost 17 gallons of

    > gasoline in 40 miles. Tell me again, what is the

    > reason we are loosing lives in

    > Iraq?

    >

    > hb

    >

    > _A

    > HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

    > 304&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

    > Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

    > "Find A Professional"_/A_



  • Jim S
    Jim S Member Posts: 82
    If you`re going

    to play the blame game then let`s also include the people who build 12,000 sq.ft. homes for a family of 4.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,600
    Pespective

    Thanks for that.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,380
    Likewise

    There's still time to change your mind and buy a ticket.

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  • Ken D.
    Ken D. Member Posts: 836
    Gas Prices.

    The driving force is supply and demand. With SUVs so popular and OPEC cutting production,prices go up More people want more of the shrinking supply of the oil barrel.Also keep in mind that the lions share of the dollars you spend at the pump go to taxes. That is why Europe is so expensive. They have much higher taxes than the US.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,380
    Unfortunately

    the politics of energy affects us all. But if we sit back and let others play the game, you can bet they won't be looking out for us.

    I don't idolize Europe either, but let's face it- there are some things they do better than us. Most of their economy is built around scarce, expensive energy. This is where America is headed. We won't ever see cheap energy again.

    We were discussing the same things in the "Toilets" thread a couple weeks ago.

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  • Floyd_5
    Floyd_5 Member Posts: 418
    My bad......

    guess I better trade in my Suburban.....

    Yeah right!!!! Never drove a vehicle that I felt more comfortable in....80-90MPH and you ain't got a clue your even close to those speeds. Good thing it has cruise.....

    AND it took me alot of places on service calls this winter and up muddy lanes this spring that no other vehicle would go.

    Hey, it's a relative.....

    Floyd
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,380
    But you have a reason

    to drive such a vehicle. HB was referring to similar vehicles carrying one person and no cargo. A smaller vehicle can do that job just as well.

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  • leo g_13
    leo g_13 Member Posts: 435
    to get really off target

    i can't remember if it was here or maybe in the local paper, but there was a great article about the differences in driving philosophies vis-a-vie, us/them. here we tend to want to wrap as much steel as possible around ourselves for "protection". there, they tend to concentrate on the drivers ability to avoid crashes for "protection" there was a great stat about how these big SUV's are actually more dangerous, because as Floyd said, you don't really feel the road. also they take like up to twice as long to come to a stop, very bad steering in an emergency, tend to be top heavy, so they can roll over easier, and believe it or not, but some of the smaller cars have much better crash safety ratings!

    again, i see a correlation to energy costs, to the way things are "accepted"

    leo g

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  • jim lockard
    jim lockard Member Posts: 1,059
    When you

    See solar panels on the roofs of every goverment building then one will know this goverment is serious about the energy issue. Until then keep pumping it out of the ground like it is horse manure. Jim Lockard
  • scrook_2
    scrook_2 Member Posts: 610
    do not disagree...

    byut was pointing out historical price data while carefully skirting the political aspects.

    US energy conservation (and water conservation too, speaking of toilets (and cloths washers), but that's getting off topic) does need to continue to move forward. Just this didn't seem the proper forum to discuss it. Gasoline (and diesel/heating oil, propane and NG) do relate to both heating and to the cost of running a heating business.

  • J.C.A._3
    J.C.A._3 Member Posts: 2,980
    Leo,

    Couldn't agree with anyone more . My last "car" was an Audi V-8, safest thing I've ever felt.(almost 6000 lbs and built much along the lines of a panzer tank!)!) Would cruise at 130mph all day and it felt like anything else I've ever driven did at 65. Would pass everything but a gas station!

    After a couple of years in a "cargo van", out of necessity, I've gotten into the LEV(low emission vehicle) status . Over 30 mpg's ain't too hard to take with the growing price of fuel and it's more than comfortable enough to sit in for up to 6-7 hours.

    We've been spoiled. Get used to the cost of fuel. (unpolitically motivated statement to follow) The prices we are seeing now are going to seem inexpensive in the future.The "speculators" and futures markets are driving the prices WAY more than the "Cost Per Barrell" will ever do. JMHO, Chris
  • John@Reliable_9
    John@Reliable_9 Member Posts: 122
    Steamhead, It's career bureaucrats who are really in charge!

    Steamhead said "The current administration is beholden to the oil and other energy companies" I used to think that too! But an old timer explained politics it to me once like this. Do you ready think the president matters? They come and go every four or eight years, but the real people in charge never change ie: Senators, representatives and the dreaded career bureaucrats who are really in charge! , Why because they are the ones who enforce policy, yet if they wait long enough theirs a NEW president coming in and the game begins all over. Something to think about for sure. P.S. did I mention the money and lobbyists? hehehe John@Reliable
  • eleft_4
    eleft_4 Member Posts: 509
    To Jim S

    BUT, they pay more than their share for public education. It's called property tax, do you know about that?

    al
  • Jim S
    Jim S Member Posts: 82
    No need

    for sarcasm al.

    If the people want to drive a gas guzzling suv and can afford it,let `em.

    They will obviously end up paying their fair share of the gasoline tax as well.
  • steve gates
    steve gates Member Posts: 329


    and don't forget the shareholders.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,380
    But don't forget

    senators and representatives can be voted out too! November 2, 2004.

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  • Unknown
    Unknown
    political wall again

    The United States seems to be in a race to the bottom all to often. How much horsepower and girth is enough? Really now! Hummers to take the kids to ball practice! Since we are the worlds largest energy consumer, the least we could do is burn the oil we take from all corners of the planet more thoughtfully.

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  • ALH_3
    ALH_3 Member Posts: 151
    mpg

    Don't forget the millions of tractor trailers that get 3-6 mpg. Rising energy prices aren't all bad. It's already forcing advances in heating technology. Who would purchase a condensing boiler at twice the price if fuel was dirt cheap? People decide with their pocket books first and their consciences later, and that's not unique to the US.
  • George_10
    George_10 Member Posts: 580
    When I was writing a newspaper column

    I wrote one on energy prices. The hook in that article was the taxes, gas/oil raised, specifically for the states. So we think the car and oil companies have a vested interest in oil, gas prices and cars. Think about what the states get in revenue and how little effort is expended to collect the money. It is a goose that lays significant gold eggs for them.
  • Mark_25
    Mark_25 Member Posts: 67


    Don't forget the culture and laws that shape the driving patterns of folks. Most folks in suburbia don't have room or the money for more than one or two vehicles. Two car garage, homeowners association, and laws against cars on streets constantly give you limited choices. Two kids, and they have to be in car seats and you have limited your options. Three kids, and your automatically talking van or SUV. Minivan for the wife, and you want a truck to haul your boat on the weekend. You can't afford or have the room for another commuter car, so you buy the pickup and suck it up for fuel. Perhaps if you had another spot to park a Jetta TDI in, you'd go for it, but the full time insurance on another car would cost you another $1K a year, so you suck it up. So people drive big SUV's because it's probably cheaper for them to do so...
  • PJO_5
    PJO_5 Member Posts: 199
    I respectfully disagree...

    Mark,

    I own a minivan, and it is also a towing vehicle...up to 3,500 pounds includes every boat I'd want to pull out of the water (above that and you are in a slip). It also pulls a trailer for getting wood, and whatever else. It gets 26 mpg on the highway and carries seven passengers.

    My second car is a Civic...35 mpg on the highway and I don't drive slow :-)

    There's my two cars, and I have three kids and a dog.

    Since between the two cars we drive about 40,000 miles a year that's pretty significant, don't you think? Why can't everyone realize that we need to conserve energy - including gas and oil - because there is nothing bad about doing that...can't say the same about NOT conserving.

    Take care, PJO
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I assume that

    means you will NOT be voting for Senators Mikulski & Sarbanes.
  • Unknown
    Unknown


    It's not useful pointing out gas was more expensive at the beginning of the internal combustion revolution. It was a relatively fledgling industry at the time.

    How about the prices since it became a mature market?
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,380
    Ask me

    in November!

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  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    If I could build my next truck............

    it would not have just four wheel drive, it would have all wheel drive. Naturally, a four speed automatic transmission with overdrive would be the choice. I would also like it to have a GVW of 9,500 pounds with a gasoline/electric hybrid motor that produced 350 HP and had buckets of torque while achieving 30 MPG. Someday soon…………

    hb

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  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,380
    That may happen sooner than you think

    Honda and Toyota were first, but we should see American hybrid cars and trucks becoming available in the next few years. Ford has a hybrid Escape SUV almost ready and others will follow.

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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    gas miles

    My police intercepter is killing me! Its a great car with lots of umff but sad to say she needs to go. Its hard to look back, im FIRST A CAR GUY THEN BOILER guy and some what of a history buff. Cars are king in my book give me a V8 and make it supercharged please! Im not crazy I know I need to go to a 4 piston engine but with the intercepter the only time you knew you were on ruff roads was at speeds higher thain I care to admit. SO any way ill hold on to the girl for a time but if the gas price per gal dose not change I would think lots of cars will go real cheap.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Saw an interesting Ford

    concept truck at the Detroit auto show a few years back. A 350 with a hydraulic motor connected to capture braking energy. It was stored under high pressure then released to supplement the engine on acceleration.

    Supposed to be a few hybrid SUV's out this year. Think Ford plans a Escape sized model.

    I'm ready for one :)

    hot rod

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  • David DeFord
    David DeFord Member Posts: 13
    Saw an interestin quote..

    a few month ago from the Saudi oil minister. "The stone age didn't end for the lack of stone and the oil age won't end for a lack of oil." I live in Detroit and there are a goodly number of cars in the design stage that don't run on gasoline but hydrogen - no oil and no pollution (actually just a whole lot less of each). The point is that I think that there is a concerted, although somewhat underground, effort to rid this entire country of the scourge of Mid-east and OPEC dominated oil. Just a 10-15% drop in the demand for oil would probably cut the price more than in half. This would have devestating short-term effects on every economy in the world but long-term it gets us as a country of Mid-east politics and makes us much more energy self-sufficient. Kinda neat in my opinion. It'll be interesting to see if it happens.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Time to go to the Fatherland...

    ...where it is still possible to find some empty highways at 6AM without speed limits. Beware of the Swiss-owned Italian exotica or some of the more fearsome southern German breeds (M5+, some AMG varieties, RUF, Porsche). Even at 150+MPH, they'll catch up very quickly indeed.

    Then, if you really want to scare yourself silly, hop on a Hayabusa and do the same thing all over again. If you thought that going 150+MPH was scary in a "cage", then try it on a bike!

    Anyway, for the US, much more pedestrian speeds are called for. Not only are the safety standards much laxer (state inspections are a joke), they practically hand out licenses.. In Germany, 1/3 of all test takes fail the first time, even though they all are required to take classes, etc. IIRC, there are over 200 questions in the German written multiple-choice exam, and only 5% are allowed to be wrong. In Maine and Mass., it's 20 questions, and 5 are allowed to be wrong (25%! - do you have a pulse, my son?).

    There are a lot of objectionable aspects about Germany, but their insistence on safe driving standards is something I look forward to every time I drive there. I feel much safer on a German road than I do in Mass. or (gasp!) Rhode Island.
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