Struggling to identify my radiator brand

sloomee

Hi all. New to the game. Purchased EDR but I am struggling to identify my radiator. There is some writing along the sides and the bolts have a mfg logo or insignia.

I've attached pictures.

Please let me know if this is something you're familiar with! Below pictures are radiator details.

14 sections. 37" end-end bolt-to-bolt. 34" interior section 1 -14 (no bolts included)

feet 2 3/4" high.

7" deep.

4 tube.

5 3/4" air gaps.

23" total height including legs.

mattmia2

others will know better than i do but i think this is after they were standardized so you just need a narrow tube with those dimensions and number of tubes, the different manufacturers were the same edr.

Steamhead

It's an Eastwood, made by Pierce, Butler & Pierce which was based in Syracuse, NY.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1898065#Comment_1898065

This is true. Any chart for similar rads will work. On page 148 of E.D.R., we see a similar Aero rad made by National Radiator Corp. is rated 35 square feet.

EdTheHeaterMan

For better identification, you might want to remove some of those layers of paint down to the bare metal around the lettering. That will give you more information about what it actually says on that cast iron.

I also agree with @mattmia2 . You can simply find a generic chart with the dimensions of that radiator and use it to determine the EDR of that section.

TMS1980

I have those identical radiators. Somewhere on this site there is an edr sheet for them but I’ll attach mine. Steamhead is 100% correct

Pierce-Butler.pdf

Steamhead

Interesting- you can clearly see "Pierce, Butler & Pierce" on the rad in the pic, but by the time @TMS1980 's chart was printed, one of the Pierces was gone. Wonder what happened?

sloomee

Thank you @mattmia2. Thank you @Steamhead. Thank you @EdTheHeaterMan. And thank you @TMS1980 .

I'm renting in NYC and the risers are banging a decent amount at start-up and about half as much during shut off.

I read "We Got Steam Heat! A Homeowners Guide to Peaceful Coexistence" by Holohan cover to cover. Based on that read, it could be the vents need to be cleaned. There are 5! vents by my count, although it is dimly lit and the building is mixed use, pipes are everywhere. Or it could be boiler and system size mismatch.

I've started gathering drawings of the system from DOB, asked my friendly neighbor if I could look at their radiator, and I've visited the boiler a few times.

I want to match Boiler output hourly rate to main pipe hourly rates to risers + radiators hourly rates. Is that the correct way to look at the problem?

mattmia2

no. banging means water or steam is someplace it shouldn't be. incorrect piping, incorrect pitch, poor boiler water quality like it has oil on it and is surging or has too much detergent in it and is foaming, a runout to a radiator is holding water because it has the wrong pitch, piping that isn't designed to manage the condensate that comes out of a riser if it is a tall building.

EdTheHeaterMan

A-HAA!. The true reason for this post:

It should be titled: Help me find the Banging

As far as this discussion is concerned "Size Does Not Matter"

Spoiler Warning

That is radiator size I was talking about

"I'm renting in NYC and the risers are banging a decent amount at start-up and about half as much during shut off."

Now we need more in formation.

1. As a renter you probably have no say in what goes on in the boiler room.
2. As a resident you need "Quiet Enjoyment". (I learned that in business law in 1975)
3. Once you have done all the research, As a non-professional you may find the answer but no one will listen to you because "What could they know, They are only a (fill in your job title)"
4. That should not stop you from trying though, You never know, You may find the problem and become the hero of the building.

@mattmia2 has touched on the most common causes of the banging. So the process of elimination is the only way to get the banging to stop. I might start with the water quality in the boiler. Can you post photos of the near boiler piping? Look at the gauge glass and see if the water inside the glass is clean. Does it bounce more than 1" while the boiler is operating?

sloomee

@EdTheHeaterMan GUILTY your Honor. I plead GUILTY! And I throw myself at the mercy of the court. Apologies for radio silence. This is a covert operation for now.

I looked at the gauge glass, it does look like there's oil in there, but its mostly in the air gap. Attached photos. Is that dirty enough to cause banging? Never worked with steam but built metalworking fluids. This amount of oil might cause foam in a hot sump, maybe.

AFAIK, piping completed during a transition to single family units in 1941 and has been the same since.

Boiler was replaced in 2010 with a new unit.

As far as near boiler piping, it's, it's very extensive. I have some photos but it's a little hard to follow. I'll tee them up after this post.

sloomee

I'll get the photos later today. Took a bunch but it's really hard to follow and some didn't turn out.

EdTheHeaterMan

You are granted a Stay of Execution since you have shown true remorse to the court.

The water looks fine in that glass. Not much staining above the water line either. I have seen a lot worse.

mattmia2

oil doesn't cause it to foam, it interferes with the steam leaving the surface of the water so it leaves violently in big bubbles that carry water with them instead of gently in small bubbles.(surging) if it is foaming that is because of detergent in the water or possibly high ph and some dissolved minerals(priming)

mattmia2

it looks like that boiler is leaking

sloomee

@mattmia2 Is this too much oil in the water of the boiler? Judging by the gauge glass?

mattmia2

i don't really see any oil in there. that stain on the glass could be oil or it could just be rust. usually if there is oil you will see it floating on top of the column of water but not always. the test is to look at the gauge glass while it is steaming and see if the level moves or bounces more than an inch or so. if it is moving violently most of the length of the glass or leaves the glass altogether then there is probably a water quality problem.

pecmsg

where is this building?

sloomee

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1898415#Comment_1898415

Probably not going to get a chance to see that for a while given the weather. The system is still on AFAIK, I was down there during a brief cycle a week ago that kicked out before getting to output. And it definitely turned on fully and pumped steam 2 weeks ago during one of the colder nights, my pipes were 'singing.' I'll try to be mindful of an opportunity in the coming weeks to check this should it arise. Ty for your insight.

mattmia2

if the boiler makes dhw it could be running for that. it wouldn't get hot enough to make steam for that

EdTheHeaterMan

@sloomee said: it definitely turned on fully and pumped steam 2 weeks ago during one of the colder nights, my pipes were 'singing.'

This is exactly what I am always saying about heaters that make humming noises. They forgot the words, so somebody needs to put the sheet music and lyrics on the floor where the boiler can read them. That's usually enough to get the humming to stop.

Your boiler, on the other hand, is singing and clearly remembers all the words! 😄

sloomee

Okay guys I have a lot of pics but it's hard to follow, even for me, and I was down there. Some of them didn't turn out great, but mostly there's just a ton going on pipe-wise in this place.

I can dump the pics, or I can take photos and video of exactly what you want. Is there a preferred way to embed video? An outside hosting site? What exactly would you like to see?

If you look at the prior photos there is some oil in the gauge glass, but it is just a few drops on top of the water and is a little difficult to see.

I've added some photos of the escutcheons in my apartment. You are looking at 3 separate risers, kitchen, bathroom, living room, in that order - top then bottom. I removed the detachable escutcheon on the floor in the bathroom and living room. The thicker rings are on the ceiling in all shots, I'm uncertain if you would call those escutcheons. Apologies for the lower light, flash whited everything out terribly when I used it. Gap is 1-2mm on tile in bathroom. Gap on the first wood floor picture is about 15mm at widest, but some sort of loose wood piece is fitted beneath flooring to close space, probably for bugs, and floor feels flush around rest of riser. Big wood floor gap shot smallest point backside about 1.5mm, smallest gap front is ~4mm. Could banging during pipe heating be caused by what you're seeing here? I recall doing the calculations a year ago and thinking this probably wasn't the cause (at least around the floor) but please weigh in.

There is a rotund hot water heater hooked up @mattmia2 as you mentioned, that might be what the partial heating was about.

Ultimately though, I don't think my property manager is going to take my word for what might be going on. I'm located in the Murray Hill area of NYC @pecmsg. Is there someone you would recommend @mattmia2 @EdTheHeaterMan @pecmsg?

Grallert

It looks to me there has been some settling of those radiators. Judging by the escutcheons at the ceiling. The rust and caulking tells me those reds have settled down likely changing the pitch of the supply runs in the cellar. This would cause hammering if there is enough negative pitch.

mattmia2

there are several steam experts in nyc. @JohnNY @Mad Dog_2 @EzzyT @clammy to name a few.

there will be a lot of condensate from those risers and the piping in the basement needs to be designed and still properly pitched to deal with it or that condensate will pool somewhere and collide with stem an you'll get banging.

what happens at the bottom of those risers in the basement and what happens at the ends of the mains will be important as well as pitch of the mains themselves. there could be takeoffs from those risers in the floors that feed the nearby radiators, the pitch of those will also be important.